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Thread: Jurisdictions where backoffs are not allowed

  1. #1


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    Jurisdictions where backoffs are not allowed

    Every time I have been "backed off" in Missouri, I was allowed to continue playing there, but they used other countermeasures such as shuffling every two or three hands (in DD game).

    I believe this is due to laws stating they have to let everyone play every game, correct?

    Is it the same way in Atlantic City? Are there other jurisdictions where they can't force a card counter to stop playing?

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    It is the same way in Atlantic City. They cannot back you off but they will make the game unplayable for you. This is usually done by either cutting the shoe in half or forcing you to flat bet. They haven't officially backed you off, but they pretty much have.

    Not sure of other jurisdictions other than NJ or MO where this is the case.

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    NJ and MO are the only states that have this kind of legislation in place.

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    So they cannot 86 me from the property if they catch me playing blackjack in Missouri?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueman View Post
    So they cannot 86 me from the property if they catch me playing blackjack in Missouri?
    They can't 86 you due to card counting, AFAIK. Doing something else, they can probably 86 you for that.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueman View Post
    So they cannot 86 me from the property if they catch me playing blackjack in Missouri?
    Well, let me clarify. If you're in a casino to which you aren't already banned from elsewhere, you cannot be banned for playing blackjack in Missouri/New Jersey. If, say, you were banned at Harrahs Metropolis, and it was a property-wide ban, you'll be banned from Harrahs North Kansas City.

    They are allowed, however, to employ counter-measures against you. Flat betting you, raising table minimums, shuffling every hand, half shoeing you, and so forth, but they can't physically remove you from the table, stop your play, or ask you to leave because of it. They will, however, keep a close eye on you for any infraction they can come up with, to ban you, so keep a cool head and don't say a bad word!

    Quote Originally Posted by RollingStoned View Post
    They can't 86 you due to card counting, AFAIK. Doing something else, they can probably 86 you for that.
    This, I know of one counter who was banned from a property in Missouri for "destroying a bathroom fixture", even though they couldn't actually prove it in a court of law since there are no cameras in the bathrooms.

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    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    Backoffs not allowed in New Jersey and Missouri. There are a variety of other countermeasures that they use that servers to protect their bottom line. (moving the cut card, shuffling early, $5-$50 sign, etc) They can still 86 you if you create a disturbance or make blatant attempts to circumvent their countermeasures (like coming back under a fake name).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    If, say, you were banned at Harrahs Metropolis, and it was a property-wide ban, you'll be banned from Harrahs North Kansas City.
    I don't think so. A barring at Harrah's Metropolis would not apply in Missouri or New Jersey if that barring was because you were counting cards. I've gotten certified letters from a Horseshoe property and not had any issues playing at other Horseshoe properties on the same ratings card despite the certified letter saying I'd face arrest. The manager of one Harrah's does not have authority to 86 you from another Harrah's and considering most Caesars properties are now divided up between a myriad of operating companies to protect their assets during bankruptcy who is to say who has authority to do anything nationwide anymore.

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    I've never played in AC, but I started playing blackjack and grew my BR in MO. It's true that MO cannot back you off in the traditional sense, but they can counter-measure you via half shoe, two-rounded, 25% penetration, preferential shuffle, and table max cap. They cannot flat bet you. I was backed off (counter-measured) at least 25+ times in MO just in 2016 alone. I've never been flat bet, but I did have one shift manager who did attempt (unsuccessfully) to back me off and 86 me from the casino, based solely on my play, and nothing else.

    I'm far less active in MO these days. I still make attempts to play every now and then, and I've had some recent success with playing certain shops with no counter-measures. Now I travel to play, due to my over-exposure at home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    I don't think so. A barring at Harrah's Metropolis would not apply in Missouri or New Jersey if that barring was because you were counting cards. I've gotten certified letters from a Horseshoe property and not had any issues playing at other Horseshoe properties on the same ratings card despite the certified letter saying I'd face arrest. The manager of one Harrah's does not have authority to 86 you from another Harrah's and considering most Caesars properties are now divided up between a myriad of operating companies to protect their assets during bankruptcy who is to say who has authority to do anything nationwide anymore.
    That's because you were only sent that certified letter for that property, and not a property-wide ban. You skipped over that important qualification likely because I worded it so poorly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    I've never played in AC, but I started playing blackjack and grew my BR in MO. It's true that MO cannot back you off in the traditional sense, but they can counter-measure you via half shoe, two-rounded, 25% penetration, preferential shuffle, and table max cap. They cannot flat bet you. I was backed off (counter-measured) at least 25+ times in MO just in 2016 alone. I've never been flat bet, but I did have one shift manager who did attempt (unsuccessfully) to back me off and 86 me from the casino, based solely on my play, and nothing else.

    I'm far less active in MO these days. I still make attempts to play every now and then, and I've had some recent success with playing certain shops with no counter-measures. Now I travel to play, due to my over-exposure at home.
    They absolutely CAN flat bet you in MO, I've seen it happen to a dear friend of mine at a distance of 4 feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    They absolutely CAN flat bet you in MO, I've seen it happen to a dear friend of mine at a distance of 4 feet.
    Not in MO. At least not LEGALLY. I've studied MO's gaming laws, which is available to the public and I've even posted some of that information here, which Norm has archived.

    I can't even count how many times I've been in Backed Off/Counter-Measured in MO anymore, but I can tell you that I've never been flat bet. I DID have one shift manager attempt to back me off and ask me to leave the casino, but that was not legal on her part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    Not in MO. At least not LEGALLY. I've studied MO's gaming laws, which is available to the public and I've even posted some of that information here, which Norm has archived.

    I can't even count how many times I've been in Backed Off/Counter-Measured in MO anymore, but I can tell you that I've never been flat bet. I DID have one shift manager attempt to back me off and ask me to leave the casino, but that was not legal on her part.
    Yes in MO. They can, legally, flat bet you by flat betting the entire table, and if you're playing solo, you're the only one affected.

    Legally speaking, they cannot place a counter-measure against a single player, it must be done unilaterally for the entire table. In this case, the PB will walk over and inform the table that during the remainder of their play at the table, they are not allowed to raise their bets. Further, they will go and change the placard with the minimums on it to defense the remark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    Yes in MO. They can, legally, flat bet you by flat betting the entire table, and if you're playing solo, you're the only one affected.

    Legally speaking, they cannot place a counter-measure against a single player, it must be done unilaterally for the entire table. In this case, the PB will walk over and inform the table that during the remainder of their play at the table, they are not allowed to raise their bets. Further, they will go and change the placard with the minimums on it to defense the remark.
    Ok that's different. I mentioned in my original post that they could place a cap on table max. But they cannot single one person out and tell them they are flat bet. That's what I mean. They can't flat bet someone in the traditional sense.

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