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  1. #1
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    T3

    These never ending threads are a result of T3 and Flash imposing their will on Hi Opt II. EOR will never change. However, constant change proves historical. Wong Halves and Perfect Insurance is the best way to keep up with it all.

    For a deeper understanding of the game see Moses Column Charts and Explanation.
    Last edited by moses; 10-06-2017 at 07:35 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    conventional wisdom of PE instead of BC concentration on shoes.
    This notion was true, long ago and far away, BUT it is dependent on spread.

    I would gladly play with Hi-Lo if I could spread 24 to 1 in good 6 deckers.

    The reality of today's game is that aggressive spreads are hardly ever

    tolerated for long, especially with a noticeable cumulative win.

    Earning reasonable profits with moderate spreads i.e. <12-1 in good 6 deckers

    provides the Hi-Opt II user with very significant tools with which to profit WITH

    an enhance degree of longevity.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    I would gladly play with Hi-Lo if I could spread 24 to 1 in good 6 deckers.

    The reality of today's game is that aggressive spreads are hardly ever

    tolerated for long, especially with a noticeable cumulative win.
    Everyone should be aware that ZMF has never liked The Hi Low Count period, and once again he continues with biased implications to attempt to discredit the system. Between the lines he is saying the only way you can beat good 6 deckers is with large spreads, if you are using the hi low count system and they will not be tolerated long, especially with a noticeable cumulative win. Leaving the Hi Low count out of this for a second, using large spreads in today's casino environment is going to result in a very short playing career. ZMF says especially with a noticeable cumulative win, well this applies to all systems used. He thinks you can hide your skills better winning money on a regular basis and continue playing with the HI-OP II system. You might last longer, depending on your act, just looking at a pit person the wrong way can get you tossed but, everyone gets the toss when the cumulative win tolerance is reached!

    Back to ZMF's implication:
    "I would gladly play with Hi-Lo if I could spread 24 to 1 in good 6 deckers."

    Lets cut the spread in half to 12 to 1 just for an example, the games I play start with a play all SCORE of 51.53. I do not even come close to playing all, and sometimes I will briefly use a slightly higher spread and at times a lower spread depending on the house and situation. I have found that by using a real good act, without being greedy, with infrequent visits to the same casino has keep me from being flat bet , or removed to a very reasonable number. ZMF is well aware of the stats in chapter ten in BJ Attack 3 by Don S, however his problem is he also knows AP plays in other games that return him much higher EV percentages. So subconsciously he wants others to reach for and achieve higher goals, extremely admirable. Personally I have admired his work for a very long time, and given the opportunity I am sure I could learn plenty from him. On the other hand I will not stand idle an allow the discrediting of BJ attack 3, whether indirectly or not, as well as what CC system I use.
    Last edited by BoSox; 01-02-2017 at 05:06 PM.

  4. #4


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    BoSox,

    Without identifying casinos, would you please kindly share the rules of the 6 deck games you play, in a play-all mode, that yield a SCORE of 51.53, while employing a 12:1 bet spread, using the Hi-Lo counting system?

    I believe that information would benefit most new counters, and many more experienced players.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by frank galvin View Post
    bosox,

    without identifying casinos, would you please kindly share the rules of the 6 deck games you play, in a play-all mode, that yield a score of 51.53, while employing a 12:1 bet spread, using the hi-lo counting system?

    I believe that information would benefit most new counters, and many more experienced players.
    S17 das ls

    This also reflects knowing the I18 and Fab 4
    Last edited by BoSox; 01-01-2017 at 08:18 PM.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Everyone should be aware that ZMF has never liked The Hi Low Count period, and once again he continues with biased implications to attempt to discredit the system. Between the lines he is saying the only way you can beat good 6 deckers is with large spreads, if you are using the hi low count system and they will not be tolerated long, especially with a noticeable cumulative win. Leaving the Hi Low count out of this for a second, using large spreads in today's casino environment is going to result in a very short playing career. ZMF says especially with a noticeable cumulative win, well this applies to all systems used. He thinks you can hide your skills better winning money on a regular basis and continue playing with the HI-OP II system. You might last longer, depending on your act, just looking at a pit person the wrong way can get you tossed but, everyone gets the toss when the cumulative win tolerance is reached!

    Back to ZMF's implication:
    "I would gladly play with Hi-Lo if I could spread 24 to 1 in good 6 deckers."

    Lets cut the spread in half to 12 to 1 just for example the games I play start with a play all score of 51.53. I do not even come close to playing all, and sometimes I will briefly use a slightly higher spread and at times a lower spread depending on the house and situation. I have found that by using a real good act, without being greedy, with infrequent visits to the same casino has keep my being flat bet , or removed to a very reasonable number. ZMF is well aware of the stats in chapter ten in BJ Attack 3 by Don S, however his problem is he also knows AP plays in other games that return him much higher EV percentages. So subconsciously he wants others to reach for and achieve higher goals, extremely admirable. Personally I have admired his work for a very long time, and given the opportunity I am sure I could learn plenty from him. On the other hand I will not stand idle an allow the discrediting of BJ attack 3, whether indirectly or not, as well as what CC system I use.
    You say a few times that you are making big assumptions about what Flash was saying, so why get so worked up about it? I think a more straightforward interpretation is, compared to what Flash has going on now, the 6 deck game would have to allow him a 24 to 1 spread to make it worth his while. Perhaps a lot of that has to do with the games he's playing, with better rules or opportunities. Should we get all righteous about the injustice of a shoe game?


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  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    You say a few times that you are making big assumptions about what Flash was saying, so why get so worked up about it? I think a more straightforward interpretation is, compared to what Flash has going on now, the 6 deck game would have to allow him a 24 to 1 spread to make it worth his while. Perhaps a lot of that has to do with the games he's playing, with better rules or opportunities. Should we get all righteous about the injustice of a shoe game?
    bejammin075, this thread is just a current stop, for a ongoing debate that goes back for at least 15 years.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    bejammin075, this thread is just a current stop, for a ongoing debate that goes back for at least 15 years.
    OK. I just don't think it's worth righteous anger when you are putting words in someone's mouth, and then arguing against something you imagined.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    OK. I just don't think it's worth righteous anger when you are putting words in someone's mouth, and then arguing against something you imagined.
    I already told you bejammin this goes back a long ways. Nothing imagined on my part, read post 54, I have been reading the same words from ZMF for years.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    " ... discrediting BJ attack 3"
    Discredit ? Surely you jest !

    I have several copies of BJA 3rd, Hardcover, Softcover, and

    the latest printing with the priceless updated appendices.

    Don's magnum opus is the Card Counters Holy Book.

    I demand that my students study the book thoroughly.

    I quiz them on various chapters to be sure that they are

    well-grounded in BJ technicalities. The only other demand

    that I have is a reading of The Theory of Blackjack, 6th ed.

    Don Schlesinger has explained why he based the book

    upon Hi-Lo and no explication is required here. For those

    who need an explanation of why the redoubtable Don S. has

    never used Hi-Lo, but based his priceless tome upon it ~

    It is a LINGUA FRANCA ... it serves as a common language

    between author and readers whose counts are different.


    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 01-02-2017 at 07:42 AM.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    Discredit ? Surely you jest !

    I have several copies of BJA 3rd, Hardcover, Softcover, and

    the latest printing with the priceless updated appendices.

    Don's magnum opus is the Card Counters Holy Book.

    I demand that my students study the book thoroughly.

    I quiz them on various chapters to be sure that they are

    well-grounded in BJ technicalities. The only other demand

    that I have is a reading of The Theory of Blackjack, 6th ed.
    Clever manipulation ZMF, but sorry it made you look worse. People are paying attention. Just as long as your students are made very clear in your instruction, that the HI LOW count is not only to be ignored, but is only used by mere mortals, who are amateurs.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    Don Schlesinger has explained why he based the book

    upon Hi-Lo and no explication is required here. For those

    who need an explanation of why the redoubtable Don S. has

    never used Hi-Lo, but based his priceless tome upon it ~

    It is a LINGUA FRANCA ... it serves as a common language

    between author and readers whose counts are different.
    Correct, as it was a smart thing to do using the hi Low count in many of the book examples. The book has absolutely nothing to do with what card counting system Don Schlesinger personally uses, so why bring it up? Unless, of course, you are implying that the count is beneath him, and subsequently readers of the book should recognize the meaningless fact. Au contraire, unlike you, Don Schlesinger is an honorable man. He would never in his life fill a book with numerous examples about a worthless card counting system. Don is constantly defending the material he writes about, against charlatans like you. I hope people are paying attention.
    Last edited by BoSox; 01-02-2017 at 10:09 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    "Clever manipulation ZenMaster_Flash"
    I manipulated absolutely nothing at all.

    In the last century, during the 70's and 80's BJ players could
    spread aggressively with almost no consequence, as when Don
    S. was an active BJ player. Furthermore, Hi-Lo is perfectly fine
    for (classic) team play, and for those who are shuffle tracking
    or Ace Locating, Hole Carding, etc. It is certainly sufficient for
    low-stakes "recreational" play. In the modern hyper-paranoid
    casino environment Hi-Lo for serious [heads-up] BJ play is
    self-defeating for several reasons, none of which I will bother
    to reiterate here. As a semi-retired veteran professional player
    I spend enormous amounts of time rescuing the gullible from
    the (ubiquitous) Hi-Lo / K. O. / etc. propaganda. B T W, I am
    the recipient of a never-ending stream of gratitude from my
    partners and students, and that is better than money won !

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Everyone should be aware that ZMF has never liked The Hi Low Count period, and once again he continues with biased implications to attempt to discredit the system. Between the lines he is saying the only way you can beat good 6 deckers is with large spreads, if you are using the hi low count system and they will not be tolerated long, especially with a noticeable cumulative win. Leaving the Hi Low count out of this for a second, using large spreads in today's casino environment is going to result in a very short playing career. ZMF says especially with a noticeable cumulative win, well this applies to all systems used. He thinks you can hide your skills better winning money on a regular basis and continue playing with the HI-OP II system. You might last longer, depending on your act, just looking at a pit person the wrong way can get you tossed but, everyone gets the toss when the cumulative win tolerance is reached!

    Back to ZMF's implication:
    "I would gladly play with Hi-Lo if I could spread 24 to 1 in good 6 deckers."

    Lets cut the spread in half to 12 to 1 just for an example, the games I play start with a play all SCORE of 51.53. I do not even come close to playing all, and sometimes I will briefly use a slightly higher spread and at times a lower spread depending on the house and situation. I have found that by using a real good act, without being greedy, with infrequent visits to the same casino has keep my being flat bet , or removed to a very reasonable number. ZMF is well aware of the stats in chapter ten in BJ Attack 3 by Don S, however his problem is he also knows AP plays in other games that return him much higher EV percentages. So subconsciously he wants others to reach for and achieve higher goals, extremely admirable. Personally I have admired his work for a very long time, and given the opportunity I am sure I could learn plenty from him. On the other hand I will not stand idle an allow the discrediting of BJ attack 3, whether indirectly or not, as well as what CC system I use.
    I don't like the Hi-lo Count as well because it doesn't count the 7s but I won't discredit Hi-lo and say it is a weak count (it is not). I have been using my own version of the TKO with both true count for betting and indices. But these couple of days I decided to experiment and use a level 3 count system to see what difference it makes. I found that with a level 3 count I was able to bet more successfully in a six deck game and the win rate has increased. Now I am looking to see how well it performs in terms of playing efficiency and insurance in a double deck game. Level 1 count are still good count systems but it is not as effective compare to higher level count systems.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 01-02-2017 at 09:52 AM.

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