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Thread: Am I ready to actually play?

  1. #1


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    Am I ready to actually play?

    Hello, I'm a new blackjack player....or, more like a new hopeful AP. I'm trying to decide if I'm ready to actually start betting with the count. The games at my local casino are:

    -6 deck, h17, doa, das, rsa up to 4 times, No surrender options......$5-500 table limits, or 10-1000 limits

    Ok, info on my play:

    - Using a basic strategy app, I can go through 500 hands pretty consistently with no mistakes.

    - The count I've memorized is the complete Zen count, using full decks for true count conversion....I have yet to try it in real play but using a card counting app, I can go through 8 decks with no mistakes, or maybe off by 1-2 sometimes (running count, the app doesn't have a discard pile, so no practice converting).

    - I have only just started memorizing indices, so I only know four of them....Stand 16v10 at 0, stand 15v10 at 6, double 9v2 at 2, insure at 5

    - Starting bankroll is $5000, but only because that's what I have saved up so far....so it's replenishable.

    Ok, so....with all of this in mind, am I ready to start betting with the count, or do I need to practice more before I have an advantage? Some friends and I are going to the casino this weekend, so I can just flat bet for fun if I need to. If I am ready to begin using my counting, any suggestions on a bet ramp or any tips from some of you vets would be really appreciated. Thanks for your time!

  2. #2


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    No. First u need 20 indexes. Second u need to be able to play through two shoes with no betting or playing errors. So you need a shoe, discard tray and six decks to practice at home, then once you think you can pass the skills test record yourself playing two shoes and post the video here to see if you passed. Use a +10 slug at the start since how u play bigger counts is more important.

  3. #3


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    Why not. Go to the casino with your friends. Either flatbet or low spread. Practice your counting skills in actual casino conditions, as well as your comportment of not looking like a counter.

    You won't make any money with this approach, though you will gain some insight as to you will perform under actual casino conditions. Your cost for this approach should be low, and well worth the investment. Meanwhile, continue to learn indices and practice your count.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    No. First u need 20 indexes. Second u need to be able to play through two shoes with no betting or playing errors. So you need a shoe, discard tray and six decks to practice at home, then once you think you can pass the skills test record yourself playing two shoes and post the video here to see if you passed. Use a +10 slug at the start since how u play bigger counts is more important.
    I have to disagree.
    If I had waited till I could afford kids, I'd be saddled with huge education costs today.

    If I waited u till I had loads of money in the bank till I went out on my own, I never would have.

    I can give a thousand examples, but the best is that I didn't know what indices were when I started. This fellow has prepared somewhat, and seems willing to learn. Low cost seasoning with flat or low spread will give him much needed experience under actual conditions. Meanwhile, his at home practice will help him develop. In addition, he will never develop nuance skill, which is gained only through actual play.

  5. #5


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    Thanks for your input, guys. Ok, so to expand my skillset I'll work on memorizing my first 20 indices. Once I think I've got them down, I'll drill myself using the shoe and six decks. By +10 slug do you mean just take out enough cards so my starting tc is +10? I think that sounds like a good goal for my play, probably gonna take me a couple weeks so I'll post a new topic once I get good enough, and you guys can hopefully review it and help me iron out any mistakes.

    In the meantime, my buddies are still going to the casino either way, so I'll just use my time there to bet low and practice keeping track of the count without looking like I'm autistic.

    If anyone else feels like they have something constructive to add to this, or want to confirm what's already been said, I'm here to learn so it's appreciated. I hope to get back to you guys soon with some improvements to post, thanks again for your help.

  6. #6


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    Ya take a +10 slug from the six decks and put it at the start. You want to focus your practice at true 2-5 because these counts are most frequent and u have big money in play. It's okay to go now but cap your max bet at $20 until you are more practiced. You want at least 50 hours of at home practice with a shoe making true count conversion and betting decisions and index deviations. Get a discard tray also.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    Ya take a +10 slug from the six decks and put it at the start. You want to focus your practice at true 2-5 because these counts are most frequent and u have big money in play. It's okay to go now but cap your max bet at $20 until you are more practiced. You want at least 50 hours of at home practice with a shoe making true count conversion and betting decisions and index deviations.
    This advice is actually something I hadn't considered, and is quite good advice. For myself, I do play all - knowledge of negative indices for a newbie is good stuff.

    Frequency of occurrence for negative TC will far exceed frequency of large positive true counts, though obviously, dollars per occurrence will be much different.

  8. #8


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    Nothing better than to experience it. Frankly, I never counted down decks with a timer. Just counted down two decks, one card st a time, 2 cards and then three cards at a time. The OP has prepared himself far more than most here before they ventured out.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post

    The OP has prepared himself far more than most here before they ventured out.
    Agreed.

  10. #10


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    While the apps are good, go ahead and jump into CVBJ. If you are making mistakes, you will find them. If willing to risk the 5k, the $100 should be a no brainer. Otherwise, only way to truly know is by playing live. Flat bet minimum until its second nature, canceling cards.

  11. #11


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    Ok, just an update after my weekend of play:

    We were there for 2 nights. I took $500 as my "trip limit" since I knew I was going to be flat betting or at best, spreading low until I was comfortable keeping the count at a live game. I spent the first 2 hours flat betting at one of the $5 tables and came out slightly negative, though I felt I was keeping track of the count well.

    I moved to a different pit (this casino had 5 that were offering blackjack) and started to vary my bet as the count rose and fell. The highest I was willing to go up to was $50 at a count of 7, because I knew I still needed practice keeping the count as well as converting to tc. I played for an hour or so at a time, and then took hour long breaks to watch one of my buds play or go hang out at the bar. I did have a couple of drinks, but that was over the course of the whole night, so I don't believe it affected my play. By the end of the first night I was feeling confident in my ability to keep the rc and convert to tc relatively quickly. Still, I ended the night down right around $200.

    The next day we spent the afternoon golfing and then hit the casino again that night. Again, I decided to only use the remaining $300 of my $500 trip limit for practicing. I still felt good keeping my count, and after a couple hours I was even able to start holding conversations, albeit light ones, while tracking my count. When the tc went below n3, I simply pulled my bet back and went for a restroom break. I don't think I was truly "wonging" as I understand it, because I would come back to the same table after a new shoe came out. So no back counting, just forfeiting the table once the tc was reasonably low. There was also one situation where I lost the count at the end of a shoe. The count was fairly high, 5 or so, and I had bet accordingly. Every player got dealt some combo of TT, A9, AT. The dealer ended up having 21, no insurance option b/c he was showing a 10. However, he played the hand really quickly so I didn't have time to get the count to a high degree of confidence. All I could do was take a good guess based on the number of players at the table and what i remembered seeing for their hands. Like I said, we were at the end of the shoe and after my guess, the count was really low so I just pretended to be upset about his 21 and had him trade my chips up.

    By the time we left the second night, I was up just under $300, so left the casino with almost $800. I don't think that's typical based on my spread and trip bank roll, so I had some "positive variance". Still, I was grateful for the experience of some live casino play, and it's made me much more confident in my ability to keep the count. Now I'd like to work on perfecting my count, and adding more indices to my play. This trip, I only used the 4 indices I mention in my original post.

    To that end, I've now purchased cvbj and cvcx per stevie and moses' suggestions. Would you all suggest sticking to simming/practicing for the 6 decks games that are close to me for now, or should I be learning BS and indices for DD games and different rules as well? I ask because I would like to take a few trips to vegas per year, but also because there are several DD games offered in my area (within 2 hours driving distance), so those are potential weekend trips.

  12. #12


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    For the time being, just stick with 1 set of indices and use for both dd and 6 deck. Continue with your flat bet low soread playing to help you with your seasoning process. You'll know when you're ready to progress further.

    Nice trip report.

  13. #13


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    You were "wonging". There is "wronging out" which you were doing. "Wonging in" is when you backcount and sit to play in positive decks.

    Its easier to count when playing DD, easier to calculate TC and if you lose the count, a new shoe comes up soon enough. On the other hand, being off by 1 or 2 in runnng count does not hurt as much in a 6 deck game as it does in a DD game.

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