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Thread: Counting in 2017

  1. #1
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    Counting in 2017

    Perhaps it's time to discard many of the old counting notions from the 70's and 80's. The 3- 4 defense dominated in the 70's and was countered with the West Coast Offense in the 80's. Point is, change is inevitable, even vital in order to remain competitive.

    Norm states in his book that BC is highly important for shoe games. It was said that Arnold Snyder stated that his Zen count was no longer viable with the rule changes to the game we have today.

    Playall is a thing of the past. However, there are certain counts where it's possible to get more out of the indices we can still play. BC is definitely the theme in single deck in the age of shortened pen and preferential shuffling. Rules and Heat have been tightened in the DD game in Vegas according to the many diatribes on the forum.

    Wongers try to stay under radar and work with a 51% win percentage in a best case scenario of high BC. Don states the National Average for sportbets is 56%. I speak to investors every week that fly in to bet certain games at the same investment of a wonger.

    Norm developed REKO perhaps in anticipation of changing times. Felt/RPC provides an additional boost to those that don't mind TC and deck estimating. Wong Halves gives a little more in BC for those able to do level 3. Uston SS provides a small boost in BC for those less inclined to calculate true counting. Switching the values of the 2 and 7 will improve PE without diminishing BC. You'd have to run a SIM to determine the SCORE.

    Even with reduced indices and rules Hi Opt and Omega will still post a higher SCORE but far less of a spread between to the top non side counts. Dropping the Ace makes more sense in minimum bets than adding it when pressure is on for large bets.

    Many questions, boasts, and claims will come galore.

    The answers are in YOU, CV Data and SCORE.
    Last edited by moses; 12-22-2016 at 10:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Perhaps it's time to discard many of the old counting notions from the 70's and 80's. The 3- 4 defense dominated in the 70's and was countered with the West Coast Offense in the 80's. Point is, change is inevitable, even vital in order to remain competitive.

    Norm states in his book that BC is highly important for shoe games. It was said that Arnold Snyder stated that his Zen count was no longer viable with the rule changes to the game we have today.

    Playall is a thing of the past. However, there are certain counts where it's possible to get more out of the indices we can still play. BC is definitely the theme in single deck in the age of shortened pen and preferential shuffling. Rules and Heat have been tightened in the DD game in Vegas according to the many diatribes on the forum.

    Wongers try to stay under radar and work with a 51% win percentage in a best case scenario of high BC. Don states the National Average for sportbets is 56%. I speak to investors every week that fly in to bet certain games at the same investment of a wonger.

    Norm developed REKO perhaps in anticipation of changing times. Felt/RPC provides an additional boost to those that don't mind TC and deck estimating. Wong Halves gives a little more in BC for those able to do level 3. Uston SS provides a small boost in BC for those less inclined to calculate true counting. Switching the values of the 2 and 7 will improve PE without diminishing BC. You'd have to run a SIM to determine the SCORE.

    Even with reduced indices and rules Hi Opt and Omega will still post a higher SCORE but far less of a spread between to the top non side counts. Dropping the Ace makes more sense in minimum bets than adding it when pressure is on for large bets.

    Many questions, boasts, and claims will come galore.

    The answers are in YOU, CV Data and SCORE.
    So basically, what you are saying is that HiLo will not work in today's games? Not 6 decks and not DD. I am not so sure the football analogy is applicable here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    So basically, what you are saying is that HiLo will not work in today's games? Not 6 decks and not DD. I am not so sure the football analogy is applicable here.
    These never ending threads are a result of T3 and Flash imposing their will on Hi Opt II. EOR will never change. However, constant change proves historical. Wong Halves and Perfect Insurance is the best way to keep up with it all.

    For a deeper understanding of the game see Moses Column Charts and Explanation.
    Last edited by moses; 10-06-2017 at 07:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    So basically, what you are saying is that HiLo will not work in today's games? Not 6 decks and not DD. I am not so sure the football analogy is applicable here.
    To expand on the football analogy, blocking and tackling technique and execution are still important. In other words, whatever CC system used, it needs to be practiced and executed accurately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Perhaps it's time to discard many of the old counting notions from the 70's and 80's. The 3- 4 defense dominated in the 70's and was countered with the West Coast Offense in the 80's. Point is, change is inevitable, even vital in order to remain competitive.

    Norm states in his book that BC is highly important for shoe games. It was said that Arnold Snyder stated that his Zen count was no longer viable with the rule changes to the game we have today.

    Playall is a thing of the past. However, there are certain counts where it's possible to get more out of the indices we can still play. BC is definitely the theme in single deck in the age of shortened pen and preferential shuffling. Rules and Heat have been tightened in the DD game in Vegas according to the many diatribes on the forum.

    Wongers try to stay under radar and work with a 51% win percentage in a best case scenario of high BC. Don states the National Average for sportbets is 56%. I speak to investors every week that fly in to bet certain games at the same investment of a wonger.

    Norm developed REKO perhaps in anticipation of changing times. Felt/RPC provides an additional boost to those that don't mind TC and deck estimating. Wong Halves gives a little more in BC for those able to do level 3. Uston SS provides a small boost in BC for those less inclined to calculate true counting. Switching the values of the 2 and 7 will improve PE without diminishing BC. You'd have to run a SIM to determine the SCORE.

    Even with reduced indices and rules Hi Opt and Omega will still post a higher SCORE but far less of a spread between to the top non side counts. Dropping the Ace makes more sense in minimum bets than adding it when pressure is on for large bets.

    Many questions, boasts, and claims will come galore.

    The answers are in YOU, CV Data and SCORE.
    Hi Moses. Ronster here...I'm a little ashamed that I don't know from CV Data and Score, or what SCORE even means, being from that old school you mention, and even later, clear back to the 60's....Here where I now live it is predominately SD, DD, and a plethora of circus games...I'm a transplant from Thorpe's 36/16, to Canfield's Expert Strategy, to the Silver Fox. Currently I'm using KO and it seems to be getting the money nicely. SD is 3:2, double only on 10 & 11, split A's only, H17, and no das and decent pen ....I spread only 1 to 2 units on a quarter game, with a 1 unit press to 3 on a win with a continuing good deck. It draws very little heat if any, and so far gets the money nicely....What do you suggest I might do to improve my game?.....thanks
    Last edited by Ronster; 12-22-2016 at 12:12 PM.

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    Moses: "Don states the National Average for sportbets is 56%."

    Have no idea what this means. What does "national average" refer to? That number is more like what the best pointspread handicappers in the business can ever dream of achieving on a long-term basis.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronster View Post
    Currently I'm using KO and it seems to be getting the money nicely. SD is 3:2, double only on 10 & 11, split A's only, H17, and no das and decent pen ....I spread only 1 to 2 units on a quarter game, with a 1 unit press to 3 on a win with a continuing good deck. It draws very little heat if any, and so far gets the money nicely....What do you suggest I might do to improve my game?.....thanks
    If you want to improve your game and you're primarily playing a 1-3 spread on single and DD games using KO, then the suggestion is a no-brainer: switch to a level 2 count w/ an ace side count. I recommend Hi-Opt II for this purpose. You will improve your results dramatically. A quick sim of your SD game indicates that you would double your win rate from around $10 to $20 using HO2. It's not that hard to switch counts. You'll be operational in a week or two on the new count, but you'll never be quite as fast as with KO...

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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    "It was said that Arnold Snyder stated that his Zen count was no longer viable with the rule changes to the game we have today."
    This sounds like 3rd hand nonsense. Didn't yo' mama ever teach you
    that spreading unsubstantiated rumors is akin to poor sportsmanship?

    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    "BC is definitely the theme in single deck in the age of shortened pen and preferential shuffling."
    I am more than a bit tired of moses forever reiterating his nonsensical approach to SD, games that places BC over PE. He appears to imagine that if he makes his plays correctly, e.g. 12 vs. 5, he will be preferentially shuffled upon. I wish that the more knowledgable posters here would comment upon this folly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
    If you want to improve your game and you're primarily playing a 1-3 spread on single and DD games using KO, then the suggestion is a no-brainer: switch to a level 2 count w/ an ace side count. I recommend Hi-Opt II for this purpose. You will improve your results dramatically. A quick sim of your SD game indicates that you would double your win rate from around $10 to $20 using HO2. It's not that hard to switch counts. You'll be operational in a week or two on the new count, but you'll never be quite as fast as with KO...
    Thanks for the input BD, I will give it a go.....

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    moses.
    I suspect that you and I would love to kick up
    our heels and spend a Sunday betting on NFL games;
    BUT when it comes to BJ my iconoclastic self bridles at
    some of the things you state, and more so implying that
    I know nothing of Reno SD games. I learned to play BJ
    in Reno in the mid 1980's, and yes, the ugly preferential
    shuffling was rampant then,
    as it is now, along with skillful
    'mechanics' "busting out" card counters betting above the
    red chip level.

    The last that I looked the canon that in a SD game playing
    efficiency is of crucial paramount importance has never been
    successfully challenged.

    In order to help newbies from being misled, follow-up replies
    from Don S., Norm W, T3, Tarzan, BigPlayer, etc. will be much
    appreciated.
    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 12-23-2016 at 10:39 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    " ... Flash, here we go again. Plus you caught me after a loss so I'm pissed off as it is."
    L O L ... If it makes you feel any better, late (supposedly 'smart')
    money landed on the Giants over the Eagles. To this moment
    I cannot fathom the initial line that was put up of the Giants being
    favored by (only) 2 points. I was fully expecting to see a line that
    was double that. Luckily, I rarely bet on a favored HOME TEAM,
    preferring to watch the televised carnage. Had I bet it, the Giants
    Awesome Defense would have pushed me toward betting UNDER
    on totals.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    I am more than a bit tired of moses forever reiterating his nonsensical approach to SD, games that places BC over PE. He appears to imagine that if he makes his plays correctly, e.g. 12 vs. 5, he will be preferentially shuffled upon. I wish that the more knowledgable posters here would comment upon this folly.
    Reduced penetration in a 1D game increases the value of BC relative to PE. Actually, that's true with any number of decks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Everything is a trade-off. The small amount is not worth the risk. Hence, I can afford to lose a hand, but losing a dealer is too costly since decent pen is rare these days.

    There was an extreme positive situation awhile back. I knew only 1 of the 2-5 cards remained because 15 had been played. So I went large on two hands. The first hand is two 10s vs a 6. I thought about Don S and splitting. But I tucked the cards under the chips. The next hand is two 10's as well. So now I'm really thinking split, but tucked instead.

    I will be damned if the dealer didn't flip over an Ace and take the last 2-5 out of the deck which happened to be a 4. Tarzan wouldn't believe this was my thought. Instead, I remembered one of Freighter's jokes and started laughing. That turned a winning session into a loser. I tipped the dealer a red chip. The pit walked over and we were all laughing. However, I was not laughing when I reached the car. But I regrouped, went back in and won the next two sessions. A classic example of a game of people played with cards as opposed to vice versa.
    Moses, it must of took you four beers in your car to regroup from those two max bet $30 dollar losses. Don't feel bad even if you won the hand you gave away all the + EV with that $5 tip. I hope things are going well for you. Have a nice holiday.

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