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Thread: K-O Blackjack vs HiLo

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    How about your considering the purchase of a proper
    cell phone ["smart phone"] e.g. iPhone 6s or 7 ?
    I'm good. It's a 3x5 screen. Fits perfectly in my shirt pocket.

  2. #262
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    Bosox. Here is the difference. You handle your wins like a scholar and losses like a man. It's when those expect a handout and/or do nothing to improve their game, except complain about losses or addiction etc,etc. that irritates some posters to the point of exiting.

  3. #263


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    Funny? I try hard to avoid mocking you; but playing to our strengths,
    instead of weaknesses, (in gambling and in life) is how one ought to live.

    Your way does seem to focus on having low expectations to avoid defeat.

    Could that have something to do with your rather episodic employment history;
    and your (barely) profitable (recent) history swapping chips on the green baize ?

    Stop with the cheap shots. I have said numerous times that I am still learning. Some folks do a lot of studying, research, sims, playing on software, practice before they go on to serious playing. I opted to learn as I go, play recreationally and with little practice. Just reading forums, archives and playing. It's been a slow process but with a 40 hour job, a family, a location in a small town with limited opportunities. So I have been content just being in the positive, not really making money.

    This does not change the fact that folks playing HiLo or other simple counts are making as much money as most of those using more complicated counts.

    Norm, Don S, multiple other accomplished folks have stated that any count will get you the money.

    You and T3 and a few others are like those who purchased a Rolls Royce and cannot believe that a Honda can go to the same place, so you keep arguing that the luxury car is a must on today's roads.

  4. #264
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    ZeeBabar;


    "
    This does not change the fact that folks playing HiLo or other simple counts are
    making as much money as most of those using more complicated counts."

    The above is a clearly false statement.

    Nearly all of those who I have trained to properly play BJ, came to me after playing for months (or years) utilizing Hi-Lo, (or other Level One counts), balanced, unbalanced and mostly Ace-Reckoned.

    They sought me out in order to help them because they were either "broke" or "even",
    and could no longer rationalize their having "spun their wheels for naught."

    More than half simply gave up - after failing to improve their game with a strong count,
    while most have thanked me with genuine gratitude. About a dozen of them are regular
    posters on this forum, but have
    taken my strident suggestion to stand back and not
    attempt to defend me against scurrilous characters like ZeeBabar, who are largely
    ignorant
    of the facts when it comes to BJ, or are, indeed, closeted "pathological gamblers."



  5. #265


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    They simply came back to you after a few months or a year because they were all like most new counters to this game: NOT ENOUGH TRAINED, NO EXPERIENCE AND MAKING A LOTS OF MISTAKES THAT THEY DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE AS SUCH.

    You should stop delude yourself into thinking that you can SEE and FEEL the difference using a multi-level count over a year or a few months compared to HI-LO. Worse, you should stop telling that to newbies, it only poorly serves them and make you look like an amateur.
    G Man

  6. #266
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    Ronster was just a little boy when this thread began. I happen to know his OP was geared toward SD and DD. A relatively simple question with countless complex generalities for answers.

    From an SD and DD perspective, what difference does it make? As Don S might say for the umpteenth time, the answer is in the SCORE found in SIMS. The questions are made up of what is "in" the individual.

    Everytime my butt hits the leather seat my mind is ready to play. Can I prove a 4 column count is superior? Not without a SIM. But then who can prove it isn't effective without a SIM? Running a SIM on the matchups provides a better return on select indices than a conventional count. Simply put, I like to know what's been played and thus what remains when making minimum bets decisions. I also have peace of mind knowing my BC is the highest possible when my large bet is placed. My mental suitcase is neatly packed with all the necessities to compete at maximum capacity. Losing a session means they have to beat me at my best. It happens. But I'm not an easy out.

    Flash is the expert on Hi Opt ii. So of course I wouldn't speak for him. But I wouldn't want to be on the other side of the table against him. That's for sure.
    Last edited by moses; 01-07-2017 at 10:31 AM.

  7. #267


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I give advice that shapes a counter's plans on how to progress as a counter over time. If they want to have any chance at success they need to have a plan of progression as their skills and knowledge increase. Making them believe that the simplest approach is all they need is a recipe for disaster. It makes it sound like they will be an expert counter in weeks. It takes around a year or years of research and study to become an expert. There is a weird thing about beginners. They tend to be underfunded. The techniques people say are not worth it in many cases are worth the most to an underfunded player. The trouble is they need to dedicate a lot of time to learning and research to be ready. The get pushed out to play way too quickly using simple approaches. An underfunded player is trying to outrun ruin. Quoting Don, If he busts out it is likely to be quick because EV growth he should be having reduces RoR quickly. After and more certain BR growth allows a player to outrun ruin faster. This is about being an underfunded player not a beginner. A beginner can choose to rush out before he is ready with a simple count and risk his small BR or he can study and save a bigger BR so he can play better to a smaller initial RoR. Which is the better advice for the beginner? Play to a really high RoR when you can do a simple count but still don't know how to be an AP or choose a count whether simple or complex and play to a much lower RoR after spending a lot more time learning money management, table selection, wonging styles, selecting good conditions when all tables have the same rules and pen, the importance of scouting to managing your use of other information, how to get and use player options on a misdeal, what to do with additional information, how to handle the pit to get the best conditions, how not to look and act like a counter, etc. You guys have him rushing out there and playing a system that is not well tailored to a weak BR when they don't know anything about being an AP that is beyond counting. That is about the worst advice you can give a beginner. Learning to count and the index plays doesn't take much time for any count. Being ready to play like an AP in the casino takes a long time of study and research. Please tell beginners that. So many learn to count a simple system and then come to Flash or me to save them and make them professionals. I select pupils very carefully. I don't waste time with people that have untrainable personalities. I don't have time for that. But Flash is always taking on new students.
    The above quote is taken from post #197 in the thread in a response to a post of mine that I originally did not read, because frankly, the paragraph was too long. Since it was in a response to mine I since changed my mind.

    " Making them believe that the simplest approach is all they need is a recipe for disaster. It makes it sound like they will be an expert counter in weeks."

    Kindly state who is stating that. No one is stating that you can become an expert counter in weeks.

    "There is a weird thing about beginners. They tend to be underfunded. The techniques people say are not worth it in many cases are worth the most to an underfunded player. The trouble is they need to dedicate a lot of time to learning and research to be ready. The get pushed out to play way too quickly using simple approaches. "

    Instead of falsely implying that established players are pushing out new players to start playing the game. Could it be possible that many new players made these decisions on their very own? Again who is pushing them out to play?

    "A beginner can choose to rush out before he is ready with a simple count and risk his small BR or he can study and save a bigger BR so he can play better to a smaller initial RoR. Which is the better advice for the beginner?"

    The answer is obvious, but if the beginner chooses to do otherwise, on his or her own, who can stop them?

    "You guys have him rushing out there and playing a system that is not well tailored to a weak BR when they don't know anything about being an AP that is beyond counting. That is about the worst advice you can give a beginner. Learning to count and the index plays doesn't take much time for any count. Being ready to play like an AP in the casino takes a long time of study and research. Please tell beginners that."

    I do not teach students, please do not put me out there in the category of rushing new players out to play before being ready. Frankly I can not recall seeing it, "I do not read many threads" but if I did see someone doing so, I would voice my objection.

  8. #268


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    I am well aware that Don's book sales profits are meaningless to him, it was all a bad joke on my part.


    Pretty much everything in your above examples about Don S boils down to two different personalities and opinions on what supposed to take place on a General Blackjack Forum. How much sidetracking, and misdirection will be allowed, is really up to the moderator. Having someone on the board who tends to get right down to business, and always either gives the right answer, or steers the person where to find the answer is the best thing any serious board could hope for period. Who the fuck cares if someone does not like the personality of the person involved, give me the info brother. Do you think Don does not have the right to express frustration at times just like everyone else does? Personally, at times, I feel there is plenty enough justification for anyone to get upset and voice their opinion with the diversions of numerous threads. Here is the big question would the board be better off without Don Schlesinger? No Way, I am very glad he is around.




    I agree with you completely on this point.
    Don absolutely has the right to express his opinion. However, when he's bitching at others for not adding value to a thread, or side tracking it, he becomes a hypocrite when he does it himself.

    Is the board better without Don? No, but it would be exponentially better without his condescending, shitty attitude.

    This isn't one of those situations where Don fucked up once, and I jumped on his case about it. This is an ongoing thing with Don, as I showed with just a handful of posts. Need I dig further? I already explained that I couldn't find the comment that really irked me off with him where he was giving ridiculously reckless advice to an obvious beginner.

    The whole point is that Don is not some innocent teacher like he pretends himself to be. He's a grumpy asshole who wants this forum to post in a certain fashion, and only in a certain fashion. He very clearly does not like threads that carry on discussions after they have been answered, and he very clearly does not like threads that sidetrack.

    Both of those, however, he's more than guilty of, as I've proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    What I am hearing is most all would like to see shorter threads where question is ask and answered promptly. Not too many posts by one person and length of posts shortened. Robotic, if you will. I'm sure with today's technology it could be done. Question is should it be done?

    Humor, drama, and bickering are all emotions that perhaps drive interest from us humanoids. Perhaps a break, If you will, from the actual game we play without emotion. I've always remembered 3 farmers would break for lunch everyday and watch a soap opera.

    Do I want to read about A4 vs 4? O hell no. Did I read every word of Ex's diatribe? Twice. I cant even remember what the thread was about but i remember Frank's post about "call me Francis and I'll kill ya" and am still laughing.

    As a moderator, I haven't a clue. In my early years of corporate ladder climbing, my boss and I would go to lunch almost everyday. I'd constantly be trying to solve personnel issues that seemed rather large, to me at the time. But my boss would listen and do nothing. Most times the solutions would work themselves out naturally and my boss was either lazy or a damn genius. He wasn't lazy. I figure Norm knows what he is doing.
    That's what you're hearing from Don. I think there's maybe all of 3 people on this forum who want to see a forum the way Don wants it. It would be worthless, useless. Guys like me, real APs, wouldn't post here. I come here for discussion, not for answers. I have all the answers, I have Don's book and Norm's software! But both of those two great pieces of work, only cover about 3% of what it is to be an AP. The other 97% can't be read through many books as the ones already written have become irrelevant. Even Max Rubin's Comp city, the only book of its kind really, is wholly irrelevant today.

    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    I didn't see any reckless advice. Your personality clashes with his, that's all. I just wish the clashing could take place with more economy with words.
    That's because, as I explained, I couldn't find it. I ran into way too many posts from Don that just went on to prove my secondary point about his attitude and the way he comes off on this forum. Buried underneath, of course, all of the "page 249 table A" posts.

    I also showed a quote-string where Don attacks me for not answering the mathematics of the question, when the OP asked for more than just the mathematics, then went on like a fucking child to bash everyone in the thread for continuing on with that discussion, the one the OP was more interested in, and then went on a tantrum when his name wasn't first on the thank you list.

    The guy's ego can't fit through the fucking doorway, and his bedside manners could certainly use some improvement.

    I serve to better the community here, he does not. Simple as that. Make an argument that he wrote a book which served the community, sure, but I'm specifically talking about his posts here on the forum, which serve more as a detriment than anything. His advice, doesn't add value, and often its decades old, dated material. His mathematics posts are the only thing of value he provides, and he overwhelms all of that with the worst attitude, and the biggest outpouring of condescension on this forum.

    And what makes matters worse? Idiots like you who defend him blindly because he wrote a book, but don't take the time out of your days to actually read what he writes here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    This long thread is a perfect example of how a simple OP is turned into a count discussion with a lot of BS. Obviously, there are many many cc'ers that are doing just fine using HiLo and not everyone has a huge bankroll. Those who have a huge BR made it huge using HiLO.

    For folks who have not used HiLo in decades to come here and bash others who use a simple count is ridiculous. EX says Don S has not played in decades. I don't think T3 or Moses has played HiLo in decades either.

    I find it it funny that they think new players should use a higher count. I find it funny that they think higher counts provide better camouflage. To me, HiLo is precisely why it's great. It takes about 0.2 seconds to count the table allowing plenty of time for your act. I can converse wthbPit, fellow players, watch the game on TV while playing and obviously be far less likely to be seen staring at or obviously doing mathematics in my head.

    I wish Don S would get on the BS threads more often and insult some of these count pushers more often. Someone used an analogy of pro players. That's a bizarre one for someone like me who watches pro sports a ton. Michael Jordan might have been a player with great fundamentals but in today's games, there are a ton of players with poor fundamentals doing just fine, from Steph Curry to the Greek Freak. Tom Brady was selected in the 7th round because the scouts, thinking like T3, thought his were all wrong.

    Every thread is an opportunity for some to lecture and show off here. Simply answer the damn OP and stop.
    That's not what forums were designed for. That's not what THIS forum was designed for. This forum was designed for the community. If we only needed questions answered, there would be maybe 200 posts on this forum, all point to Don's book or Norm's software, and ultimately we'd be churning out robotic, mindless APs that only further damage the community by giving us that much more heat everywhere we go.

    People come here not looking for the answer to their question, they come here to learn how we got to the answer, or if there's a much bigger question to be asking.

    A prime example was that "buy a double down" thread. I came in, suggested that the OP look at the bigger picture, Don came in lambasting me for not answering the mathematics to the question which was no longer relevant because the OP had a moment of enlightenment when he realized he was looking at the situation all wrong.

    In Don's world, my post doesn't happen, only his, and this guy carries on with his life, playing wrong and making poor decisions.

    I make my living as an AP, Zee. There are some very obvious APs on this forum, Don just isn't one of them, and in a Biography of him that I read long ago, he admits this fact.

    So I'll ask you Zee, do you really want the mathematician without relevant real world practice within the last decade, being the guy who dictates forum policy? I sure as shit don't, and I'd take a single KJ over a thousand dons any day of the week, yet you guys did a damned good job at running him off and letting Don do a wonderful job of substituting.

  9. #269
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    You are a hoot Ex. If I woulda had 5 players like you every year I'd still be coaching. Still? To heck with that, I'd be in the Hall of Fame.

    I'm afraid you missed the KJ bus though.

  10. #270


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    Exoter
    Again, no disrespect intended, your manner reminds me of a social anarchist type who used to post elsewhere. He was somewhat if a condescending asshole who believed that the only valid opinion was his own - a legend in his own mind.

    Yes, Don is somewhat opinionated in a number of different ways, however, you are failing to look at the individual as a whole. Anyone can be condemned, including me and you. It would seem to me that your blind allegiance to KJ, is one if your character flaws. I would agree with you that his personal approach to longevity is good and that it works for him. I disagree with you as to his value, as there are many, including myself, who think of him as a certifiable fruit loop. His distorted mindset does not, as he proclaims, assist newbies, rather, encourages them to mediocrity. He refuses to consider other methodologies, and manipulates verbiage to prop up his version of the truth.

    I'm not sure that Don has imagination - however, it is clear that he has a brilliant mind. Regardless of your though processes, and fir that matter, wherever you may be correct, his immense contributions simply demand respect, and for whatever quirks he may have personality wise, he is not deserving of condemnation.

  11. #271


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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    I agree with you completely on this point.
    Exoter, please correct the point that I agree with you with, as you left that completely out indicating something completely different.

  12. #272
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    271 posts, and I think the thread went off track in when I wore a young man's clothes.

    Thread Closed
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.