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Thread: K-O Blackjack vs HiLo

  1. #1


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    K-O Blackjack vs HiLo

    The PE, BC, and IC numbers for KO are all higher than are the numbers for Hi-Lo....Not to mention the KO system is waaay easier to learn. Does anyone here on the site have any thoughts on the above?....Personally, I find those high KO numbers hard to believe, but they are what they are, aren't they?......ronster

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    An unbalanced level one count like K.O. suffers from
    poor betting correlation and limited dubious playing
    efficiency and Insurance correlation. Its sole strength
    is its ease-of-use.

  3. #3


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    In that case, how do you account for the very high pe, bc and ic numbers for ko?
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post


    An unbalanced level one count like K.O. suffers from
    poor betting correlation and limited dubious playing
    efficiency and Insurance correlation. Its sole strength
    is its ease-of-use.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by zenmaster_flash View Post


    an unbalanced level one count like k.o. Suffers from
    poor betting correlation and limited dubious playing
    efficiency and insurance correlation. Its sole strength
    is its ease-of-use.
    A-(-1)
    2-1
    3-1
    4-1
    5-1
    6-1
    7-1
    8-0
    9-0
    T-(-1)

    BC=.977, PE=.55, IC=.78

    I don't know what Zen is talking about the poor betting correlation when the BC is already .977 when the highest is 1. How much further can you improve the BC in a single parameter count? If you are using KO for six and eight deck games the PE is fine. The insurance correlation is okay. However, if you use the KO count in running count mode without making adjustment you will tend to under bet early in the shoe and over bet later in the shoe. There are further improvement to the KO count in the Color of Blackjack where it fixes the under betting and over betting. In Double and Single deck games if you use play all indices both positive and negative the SCORE outperforms Hi-lo. I don't what Zen is talking about regarding the limited playing efficiency.

    However, I was influenced by the work of the KO and REKO count so I find ways to improve upon the KO and REKO count. Fortunately, I was able to make some advancement to the system that was able to improve the SCORE. To take the KO system a little bit further you can try to tweak the tags to incorporate side counting and true counting to increase the efficiency of the count. Doing that will make the system harder and longer to learn but it will increase the potential returns.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 12-19-2016 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #5


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    Which corroborates my point Serious player... ....KO's #'s are all higher than HiLo's #'s .....Sooo, zenmaster, how do you justify your statement about KO being inferior to HiLo????
    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    A-(-1)
    2-1
    3-1
    4-1
    5-1
    6-1
    7-1
    8-0
    9-0
    T-(-1)

    BC=.977, PE=.55, IC=.78

    I don't know what Zen is talking about the poor betting correlation when the BC is already .977 when the highest is 1. If you are using KO for six and eight deck games the PE is fine. The insurance correlation is okay. However, if you use the KO count in running count mode without making adjustment you will tend to under bet early in the shoe and over bet later in the shoe. There are further improvement to the KO count in the Color of Blackjack where it fixes the under betting and over betting. In Double and Single deck games if you use play all indices the SCORE outperforms Hi-lo. I don't what Zen is talking about regarding the limited playing efficiency.

    However, I was influenced by the work of the KO and REKO count so I find ways to improve upon the KO and REKO count. Fortunately, I was able to make some advancement to the system that was able to improve the SCORE. To take the KO system a little bit further you can try to tweak the tags to incorporate side counting and true counting to increase the efficiency of the count. Doing that will make the system harder and longer to learn but it will increase the potential returns.

  6. #6


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    Once again Zen....your reply does not hold water, as KO's numbers are even higher than all three of Hi Lo's numbers ...What say you to that fact???....
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post


    An unbalanced level one count like K.O. suffers from
    poor betting correlation and limited dubious playing
    efficiency and Insurance correlation. Its sole strength
    is its ease-of-use.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronster View Post
    Which corroborates my point Serious player... ....KO's #'s are all higher than HiLo's #'s .....Sooo, zenmaster, how do you justify your statement about KO being inferior to HiLo????
    If you are interested in learning about the KO and REKO count. I suggest you read Knockout Blackjack: The Easiest Card Counting System Ever Devised, Modern Blackjack by Norman Wattenberger and The Color of Blackjack by Daniel Dravot. Using the information in those books I was able to make further improvement to the KO and REKO count myself.

  8. #8


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    On an "apples to apples" basis, KO will outperform Hi-Lo because it counts the 7 as +1. It's important to count that 7! So the following statements are true:

    1) True-counted KO will outperform true-counted Hi-Lo.
    2) Basic KO (not-true counted) will perform very close to true-counted Hi-Lo. True-counted Hi-Lo will slightly outperform.
    3) Basic KO will outperform non-true-counted Hi-Lo. (Newsflash - You don't have to true count Hi-Lo. You can simplify Hi-Lo by applying a standard betting ramp similar to KO).

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    If you are interested in learning about the KO and REKO count. I suggest you read Knockout Blackjack: The Easiest Card Counting System Ever Devised, Modern Blackjack by Norman Wattenberger and The Color of Blackjack by Daniel Dravot. Using the information in those books I was able to make further improvement to the KO and REKO count myself.
    I do have, and have read, Knock Out by Vancura and Fuchs serious player; Do you use KO as your go-to strategy?....With it's very high numbers I'm considering making the change from Silver Fox, which I currently use.....thanks....ronster

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronster View Post
    I do have, and have read, Knock Out by Vancura and Fuchs serious player; Do you use KO as your go-to strategy?....With it's very high numbers I'm considering making the change from Silver Fox, which I currently use.....thanks....ronster
    Yes, I use TKO or TREKO but not the version that was published in the books. Throughout the years I have made refinements and did computer work to the system to make it more mathematically efficient. Also, improving the SCORE to the system.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 12-19-2016 at 09:01 AM.

  11. #11
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    I use REKO.
    Sorry for this completly useless information.
    Useless but true !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronster View Post
    I do have, and have read, Knock Out by Vancura and Fuchs serious player; Do you use KO as your go-to strategy?....With it's very high numbers I'm considering making the change from Silver Fox, which I currently use.....thanks....ronster
    Ronster. Something has made you twitchy about Silver Fox. If it's in your game, then fine. But if it's from forum input, then we have a problem Houston.

    I suggest you buy CV Data, then you can put solid "numbers" to your game and not rhetoric.

  13. #13
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    I would rather first suggest CVCX. Or both, of course.
    BTW, be aware about included sims. I think REKO sim (REKO126.HST) is wrong (from an old thread and mails from Norm)

    My sim and sim from Norm :
    ScreenShot191.jpg
    Last edited by Phoebe; 12-19-2016 at 09:34 AM.

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