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Thread: Phil Ivey case

  1. #14
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    As Bob Nersesian pointed out in one of his interviews, the courts seem to be moving from "It's a contest between the house and the player" to "The house is entitled to a certain EV". Anything you do to reduce the casino's expected EV is changing the expected outcome of the game. Where will it end?
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  2. #15


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Bodarc,

    If you look at the U.S. District Judge Hillman's reasoning, you will note that on page 9, he stated: “...allowing a player to unilaterally adjust the odds of a casino game in his favor – to any degree - would violate the essential purpose of legalized gambling.”

    Sure sounds like the court would find that card counting, hole carding, shuffle tracking, etc. are activities that are against public policy. Assuming I am reading his reasoning correctly, it seems that if the case were presented, he would find most AP practices violative of the casino protection regulatory scheme implemented by the NJ legislature and its gaming commission, who collectively intended, and sought to protect the meek casinos against the evil casino patrons.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

  3. #16
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    As Bob Nersesian pointed out in one of his interviews, the courts seem to be moving from "It's a contest between the house and the player" to "The house is entitled to a certain EV". Anything you do to reduce the casino's expected EV is changing the expected outcome of the game. Where will it end?
    Should we have a chat with Bob Nersesian? I turned down a possible opportunity just after his book came out because our chat software was obsolete. We finally have decent chat software that meets AP requirements. See New Chat Room. Last I heard he was retiring, and it would be a great time. BUT, we would need to test out the chat room first. If you think such a chat is a good idea,say so. But, also try out the chat room and make certain it's operating well.
    Last edited by Norm; 12-19-2016 at 03:03 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  4. #17
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    I think that's a great idea.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  5. #18
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    I like that idea

  6. #19
    Senior Member UK-21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    They must have a huge edge on appeal, surely....
    I doubt it somehow . . . read between the lines. It will be a very bad bet to put money on the ruling being
    overturned on appeal.

    Oh, and wasn't Surely a pilot in the movie Airplane! (1980) ?
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  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by UK-21 View Post
    I doubt it somehow . . . read between the lines. It will be a very bad bet to put money on the ruling being
    overturned on appeal.
    Agreed, I think for Ivey and Sun this one is over.
    Last edited by davethebuilder; 12-20-2016 at 04:16 AM.
    Casino Enemy No.1

  8. #21


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    If they get a reasonable judge, it's far from over.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  9. #22
    Senior Member UK-21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollingStoned View Post
    If they get a reasonable judge, it's far from over.
    OK . . . offer to fund his legal costs
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  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by UK-21 View Post
    OK . . . offer to fund his legal costs
    Why would I do that? If you actually look at the case, you'd see it's been ridiculous from start to end. That doesn't mean they won't get screwed.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  11. #24
    Senior Member UK-21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollingStoned View Post
    Why would I do that? If you actually look at the case, you'd see it's been ridiculous from start to end. That doesn't mean they won't get screwed.
    Ridiculous it may have been, but the fact of the matter is he's been adjudged to have been the offending party. Contrary to your view that a reasonable judge might overturn the ruling, my own is there's more chance of me flying to Vegas on a broomstick than this happening. He can, of course, take his chances with an appeal but I think it'd be foolhardy (IMHO) and certainly won't be cheap. But he is a gambler . . .

    The final laugh on the Borgata will be if he declares himself bankrupt and can't pay it back?
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  12. #25
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    Well it seems we have another case of insane greed by an AP setting dangerous precedents that could have repercussions to all advantage play. Ivey should have let it go and also not been so greedy. Many things may become illegal because some refused to see the obvious. That is the entire play revolves around using a marked deck so you could get a betting advantage. There was no additional information that could be used fro an advantage from the cards until specific turning created a deck that had very useful info marked into the edges of the cards. Ivey may become the pariah that killed all AP play. I sure hope not but lots of attitudes on this forum would make sure that dangerous precedents are set. He had a great advantage play he could have done the rest of his life but he got greedy and tried to win sums that would force attention to the play. I hope he didn't spend his winnings from other casinos because he will likely have to pay all that money back as well. The casinos just need the right judge in other jurisdictions who will embrace this judges decision.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by UK-21 View Post
    The final laugh on the Borgata will be if he declares himself bankrupt and can't pay it back?
    The irony would be if he ends up pulling that one on CET when they come after him for winnings there if he has any.

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