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Thread: Nevada casino revenue down in november

  1. #1


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    Nevada casino revenue down in november

    May the dumb ass management of these places will get the message that 6:5, paid parking, and other egregious actions are costing them money..!

    http://www.cdcgamingreports.com/neva...t-in-november/
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  2. #2


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    Those management decisions are just a byproduct of the bigger issue. Baby boomers are dying off every day, and the Millenials are gradually inheriting the earth. From a "gambling" perspective, the two generations are vastly different, and Vegas has had one hell of a time trying to market to the millenials and extract their $. Why else did we see the explosion of bac/minibac in the last 5 years? Vegas has been marketing to the Macau/Asian market for some time now, and then Macau went and did the casino thing themselves, forcing the "big" houses to invest or lose that revenue stream. It'll be a decade before they can wrangle int he millenials still.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    Why else did we see the explosion of bac/minibac in the last 5 years?
    Asian gamblers. Millennial don't believe they have a shot at winning in the casinos because the ones with money are smart enough to know that gaming rules suck. I talked to one millennial and he said all he has to do is look at the BJ rules and VP payouts and craps rules and they know if a casino is worth playing. 6:5 and H17 are very bad signs. Hard to find 9/6 JOB video poker another bad sign. Low odds on the craps tables and no 3 to 1 on any field number and pay the vig on losses on buys and lays are another bad sign. If the places you can read if the casino has the take your cash as fast as they can rules or let you win some and lose some but get you in the long run rules. The former they avoid like the plague. Comps are fading too. Comps are what allows millennials to delude themselves that what you lost was worth the cost for the comps you got. The casinos keep moving things in the wrong direction to attract new customers. Most likely the new customers are brought by the previous generation who is complaining about these changes and saying they lose their money much faster than they used to while they bring them. Is that any way to secure new loyal customers? They just end up with lots of uneducated poor people losing money they can't afford to lose when they do it that way.

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    I don't think it can necessarily be attributed to millennials AND poor rules/games. The poor rules/games would have merit for the older (non-millennial) generation who have been gambling for a while. Millennials, as far as I can tell, are not all that interested in gambling. And those who are, don't bring much to LV to gamble with. If they gamble, it'll be for a short period of time for very low stakes. Poor rules has no bearing on whether they're going to gamble or not. It MIGHT have a tiny impact regarding how long they're going to gamble. But let's be honest, the poor rules hardly cost the uneducated folk in games of skill (BJ, VP) because they are playing so poorly. If they were to play 9/6 JOB with a 96% (because they play so poorly), adding on another 1-2% in expected loss is not going to change how long they gamble for. Same thing with BJ. If it's a 0.5% HE, they're probably giving up 3% (at least). Now make it 6:5 BJ, and they're giving up 4%. In a game with any amount of variance, even BJ, that 1% is not noticeable in several hours of play.


    What these damn casinos SHOULD be doing is having a promotion like this -- if you play table games for X hours or earn Y points on slots, you get a free ticket/entry to the night club (or whatever these darn whippersnappers are into), or earn Z amount and get a pack of beer or a fifth of liquor. I think millennials would be more interested in gambling if they were targeted in promotions.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  5. #5


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    The rise of China has seen a lot of wealth being created and an emerging middle class that likes to travel, spend and gamble. Their game of choice is Baccarat so deteriorating BJ rules and conditions does not concern them. What does attract them is the very high betting differentials allowed on Baccarat which gives them an opportunity to make a large sum of money very quickly. Most Chinese gamblers have little concept of gaming mathematics but prefer to believe in lucky spirits that surround the table and you will often find them diligently taking notes based on the results of the last hand played even though this has no effect on future results. To most Westerners Baccarat is a boring game because there is no skill involved. It has a house edge exceeding 1% but this does not deter even well educated Asians because of this cultural phenomenon that casinos worldwide cater for. Even the young Asian generation gamble heavily and often lose which in some cases sees them returning to China because they have gambled away their university tuition fees that their parents have given them.
    Casino Enemy No.1

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    Another reason no one seems to look at is the lack of wealth of Gen Y. Gen Y is a younger generation that has not been able to accumulate spending capital on nefarious goods and services like gambling. The economic factors are also hitting Gen Y by allowing college and post-secondary education become a cash drain on Gen Y. Taking out expensive loans on either "great" or "poor" degrees means most of the wealth they generate is being lost to interest and the insane principles they have to pay back for a piece of paper. Take into account also that Gen Y has entered an economy where wages have been stagnant for the last two generations as well. Baby Boomers had ridden the wave of progressivism and organized labour allowing them to demand greater pay and bennies. With the spare cash, they spent. A consumer economy was then created in full force. Now, most consumption is based on debt, (see: College and post-secondary) Wages may not be adjusted correctly for cost of living in some areas of the country, min wage cannot help a student pay for living, books, and tuition at a university even with full plus half time work at 10 USD per hour.

    In summary:

    1.) Baby boomers had additional cash to spend, Gen Y does not!
    2.) Boomers had cheaper education, better bargaining power, and an economy that showed growth for the middle class.
    3.) Gen Y has massive debt, participates actively in a consumer economy, and has little bargaining power in the workforce.

    Casinos, even if they try, cannot and will not attract Gen Y gamblers, unless:

    1.) There is a shift in an economic paradigm for Gen X and Gen Y (unlikely)
    2.) House rules are changed to allow lower HE for popular games like BJ, Craps, roulette..etc
    3.) Simple promos like junkets from a major airline, cheap seat to a concert of choice/ show of choice, and cheap single/group rooms
    4.) +EV games and allow BJ advantage play for Red action, light green action ONLY. (Dependent on how busy house is, what the spread is compared to game rules.) (This also included better poker games!)

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    I have seen the new online shooter game type gaming devices in many brick and mortar casinos for a while now. They were supposed to attract this younger generation into gambling. I have yet to see anyone using any of the rows of circular groups of machines.

  8. #8


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    Could the lack of interest also be due to the stigma of gambling being somewhat diminished? Gambling was seen as a big vice, even criminal. Attracting rule-breaker?

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Asian gamblers. Millennial don't believe they have a shot at winning in the casinos because the ones with money are smart enough to know that gaming rules suck. I talked to one millennial and he said all he has to do is look at the BJ rules and VP payouts and craps rules and they know if a casino is worth playing. 6:5 and H17 are very bad signs. Hard to find 9/6 JOB video poker another bad sign. Low odds on the craps tables and no 3 to 1 on any field number and pay the vig on losses on buys and lays are another bad sign. If the places you can read if the casino has the take your cash as fast as they can rules or let you win some and lose some but get you in the long run rules. The former they avoid like the plague. Comps are fading too. Comps are what allows millennials to delude themselves that what you lost was worth the cost for the comps you got. The casinos keep moving things in the wrong direction to attract new customers. Most likely the new customers are brought by the previous generation who is complaining about these changes and saying they lose their money much faster than they used to while they bring them. Is that any way to secure new loyal customers? They just end up with lots of uneducated poor people losing money they can't afford to lose when they do it that way.
    Its really two fold. First, the Baby Boomer market has been declining significantly for the casinos (Source: I'm a major investor privy to this kind of information), and so a lot of decisions have been made to market towards Millenials and the Asian/Chinese as you've seen. I brought up the explosion of Bac primarily because for as old as it is, its not a game that gets a lot of action in the baby boomer crowd. Its a borderline staple in Chinese/Asian cultures, and with the new generations of Chinese/Vietnamese-Americans coming of age and trying to keep that indulgence of culture, Bac was tested and found to be the most enticing game for table game players of Asian decent, and so for the last 10 years, and most notably the last 5.5 years, bac has seen an explosion. Nowadays, there are almost as many bac games in the midwest as there are any other game except for Blackjack, which has lost its position significantly due to this rise in Bac. The two worst offenders being CET and PNG.

    Second, the gaming companies have completed the shift almost nationwide into newer technologies for player ratings systems, and player development software. These geniuses think they can make more on the bottom line with their new systems implemented, which will inevitably turn more players away, by virtually eliminating the bottom line all together for casino comps and promotions. I've made my living for years exploiting this information and finding vulnerabilities and these new systems in place have really put a dent in my pocket book. While I honestly do not believe it was intended to deter people like myself who make a living from casino marketing exploits, I think it was an unintended addition. As players start getting less and less for their hard earned money, and given less and less for their play, its going to trigger a serious draw down in revenue. Vegas is going to have to turn elsewhere for an injection, and some say it has already happened a bit, and time will tell with that, but economics of gaming right now are being ran through the ringer, and unfortunately its with the bottom line in mind, not the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by RollingStoned View Post
    I don't think it can necessarily be attributed to millennials AND poor rules/games. The poor rules/games would have merit for the older (non-millennial) generation who have been gambling for a while. Millennials, as far as I can tell, are not all that interested in gambling. And those who are, don't bring much to LV to gamble with. If they gamble, it'll be for a short period of time for very low stakes. Poor rules has no bearing on whether they're going to gamble or not. It MIGHT have a tiny impact regarding how long they're going to gamble. But let's be honest, the poor rules hardly cost the uneducated folk in games of skill (BJ, VP) because they are playing so poorly. If they were to play 9/6 JOB with a 96% (because they play so poorly), adding on another 1-2% in expected loss is not going to change how long they gamble for. Same thing with BJ. If it's a 0.5% HE, they're probably giving up 3% (at least). Now make it 6:5 BJ, and they're giving up 4%. In a game with any amount of variance, even BJ, that 1% is not noticeable in several hours of play.


    What these damn casinos SHOULD be doing is having a promotion like this -- if you play table games for X hours or earn Y points on slots, you get a free ticket/entry to the night club (or whatever these darn whippersnappers are into), or earn Z amount and get a pack of beer or a fifth of liquor. I think millennials would be more interested in gambling if they were targeted in promotions.
    Double edged sword here. You can't target millenials for your promotions because you'll be basically abandoning your core revenue streams with Generation X and Baby Boomers. And you're not wrong either, Millenials (or generation Y) don't like to spend money nearly as frivolously as the generation before (gen X) who is largely poorer compared to Boomers and Millenials. Upside is, there's a massive cash grab about to happen as the boomers die off and GenX inherits the money and starts to leave the workforce. Downside, Millenials take over and start directing these properties. The real problem is that that casinos haven't stopped marketing to Boomers, and will eventually skip GenX all together, focusing on GenY. Throughout LV there's many places that have dumped Boomers/GenX and gone straight for GenY (The M, The D, and Golden Gate come to mind). Problem is, while the casinos try to figure out who the hell they need to market to next, they've been forced to go after the asian crowd for nearly a decade now, perhaps even a few years more than that, and its had a pretty negative impact on table game offerings nationwide. Some places are only permitted to have so many table games, and since Bac has become so popular with the newer generation of Asian-American players, BJ has moved out since it makes the least, leaving carnival games and bac as the biggest footprint on the floor. Couple that with Roulette going Video, the next real loss would be to Craps, and since half the nation doesn't have real craps to begin with, its at least a little concerning to watch Roulette go by the wayside and craps tables start to become less and less popular, with worse and worse rules.

    As it sits, Casinos right now are targeting the "now" portion of the bottom line, and pulling in the lifelines for the "down the road" bottom lines. The outlook is definitely bleak to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Another reason no one seems to look at is the lack of wealth of Gen Y. Gen Y is a younger generation that has not been able to accumulate spending capital on nefarious goods and services like gambling. The economic factors are also hitting Gen Y by allowing college and post-secondary education become a cash drain on Gen Y. Taking out expensive loans on either "great" or "poor" degrees means most of the wealth they generate is being lost to interest and the insane principles they have to pay back for a piece of paper. Take into account also that Gen Y has entered an economy where wages have been stagnant for the last two generations as well. Baby Boomers had ridden the wave of progressivism and organized labour allowing them to demand greater pay and bennies. With the spare cash, they spent. A consumer economy was then created in full force. Now, most consumption is based on debt, (see: College and post-secondary) Wages may not be adjusted correctly for cost of living in some areas of the country, min wage cannot help a student pay for living, books, and tuition at a university even with full plus half time work at 10 USD per hour.

    In summary:

    1.) Baby boomers had additional cash to spend, Gen Y does not!
    2.) Boomers had cheaper education, better bargaining power, and an economy that showed growth for the middle class.
    3.) Gen Y has massive debt, participates actively in a consumer economy, and has little bargaining power in the workforce.

    Casinos, even if they try, cannot and will not attract Gen Y gamblers, unless:

    1.) There is a shift in an economic paradigm for Gen X and Gen Y (unlikely)
    2.) House rules are changed to allow lower HE for popular games like BJ, Craps, roulette..etc
    3.) Simple promos like junkets from a major airline, cheap seat to a concert of choice/ show of choice, and cheap single/group rooms
    4.) +EV games and allow BJ advantage play for Red action, light green action ONLY. (Dependent on how busy house is, what the spread is compared to game rules.) (This also included better poker games!)
    The problem is GenX is poorer than GenY, and largely because they were more prone to spending money frivolously. GenY is riddled with Debt because of this, much akin to the depression age generation in terms of how they spend their money.

    As for attracting GenY, its all about value. You're going to have to provide GenY with ridiculous value to get their dollar, and on top of that, you're going to have to fit into their socioeconomic structure, and right now that just isn't the case.

    The best attack I can think of, is a restructuring of how the player development, players club, and marketing system works and how they assess their values. We're talking a major shift in how the casino clientele is handled, and that is no easy feat. ML will be the first to make this change, I'd bet the house on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I have seen the new online shooter game type gaming devices in many brick and mortar casinos for a while now. They were supposed to attract this younger generation into gambling. I have yet to see anyone using any of the rows of circular groups of machines.
    I've yet to see the shooters out here in the Midwest/South, but I know they were put in at AC and several similarly designed games ( in terms of player interaction ) have been out for a while now. The original "player skill" games are becoming more popular and varied throughout the casinos in the country, and only time will tell how efficiently this route will work. Right now, I can't imagine its a very popular thing yet, and that's largely because the Millenial crowd isn't really IN the casino night and day yet, and that's what drives your core business.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Could the lack of interest also be due to the stigma of gambling being somewhat diminished? Gambling was seen as a big vice, even criminal. Attracting rule-breaker?
    Its largely due to the fact that the target audience is too busy finding time off from work to get through the door. Casinos are seeing diminishing foot traffic year after year as the older two generations die off, and the current generation (Y) just hasn't had the time to catch a break.

    Because of this, a lot of casinos have now spread out their properties to alleviate some of this retraction of interest. Who has time to go to Vegas when you live in Minnesota and work 40 hours a week? Boom, Minnesota casinos. And this happened and continues to happen all over the country. Now I don't need to drive more than 3 hours in any direction to find a "resort casino" that offers me everything Vegas will, and wants less of my money to do it. Honestly, "local" chains are doing far better than their flagship counterparts, with the exception of Biloxi, which seems to be doing very well by comparison to AC, Tunica, and Vegas, in large part because it offers a "destination" approach to LV gambling.

  11. #11


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    Keep in mind that visitation to Las Vegas and room rates were both up in November and up for the year. 2016 will be another record year for number of visitors to Las Vegas.

    As for the stagnation in gaming revenues - the town is slowly transforming itself into an entertainment destination with gambling available, whereas it used to be a gambling destination with entertainment available.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=dogman_1234;211828]Another reason no one seems to look at is the lack of wealth of Gen Y.

    Gen X,Y, millennials are starting to inherit Baby Boomer $$$ -- so this may change soon.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by davethebuilder View Post
    Most Chinese gamblers have little concept of gaming mathematics but prefer to believe in lucky spirits that surround the table .
    in my local stores I see a lot, I mean majority of c.c I know are Chinese, only couple are white and 1 Latino. The Latino just got B.O

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