What would you do in this situation?

[seriousplayer]

I enter the shoe game at the start of the shuffle playing a six deck game. A counter was backcounting my table when I was playing heads up with the dealer. He waited until about true count of 3 to Wongin with an eight unit bet. When playing a couple of hands I couldn't figure out what count system he was using because I was ramping up on true count of 2 he dropped out. I was using a level one card counting system. When I was betting big on some of the hands he dropped out and the card counting system I was using still show that there is an advantage. What card counting system would tell you to drop out at a TC of 2 when a level one count system identify there is an advantage?

Then other players start wongin into the game I lost a double down prior when other players start coming into the shoe I started to get frustrated because the are stealing good cards from me. I got angry dropped out and went to the bathroom. When I left I think the true count was about +5.

I read in Modern Blackjack that if a backcounter is wonging the table than a counter is better off leaving the table because the backcounter will reduce positive counts and the number of hands in favorable situations. There will be fewer favorable opportunities.

So what would you do in that situation? Did I make the right decision to leave the table?

[Three]

What card counting system would tell you to drop out at a TC of 2 when a level one count system identify there is an advantage?

Each system identifies the same situation with different advantages. Usually if you are using a level 1 count (Hilo?) and the other player is dropping out when you are ramping your bet there have been a lot of 2, 3, and 6 removed but not many 4, or 5 removed. In a level 2 count like Hiopt2 the 4 and 5 carry twice the weight of the 2, 3, 6, or 7. Since you don't count the 7 in all likelihood a surplus of 7's in the remaining cards would reduce advantage as well. You have no way of knowing which was more accurately assessing the advantage for the current deck composition but it was probably the level 2 count. I played Hiopt2 at the same table as a 1.0 BC level 3 count player that I knew personally. Our bets were never exactly in synch. Usually he would raise his bet sooner and lower it sooner even though the counts are very similar.

[Three]

So what would you do in that situation? Did I make the right decision to leave the table?

Give him a dirty look and then spill a drink across the spots you aren't playing. If he doesn't get the message a more personal lesson may be in order.

[seriousplayer]

Each system identifies the same situation with different advantages. Usually if you are using a level 1 count (Hilo?) and the other player is dropping out when you are ramping your bet there have been a lot of 2, 3, and 6 removed but not many 4, or 5 removed. In a level 2 count like Hiopt2 the 4 and 5 carry twice the weight of the 2, 3, 6, or 7. Since you don't count the 7 in all likelihood a surplus of 7's in the remaining cards would reduce advantage as well. You have no way of knowing which was more accurately assessing the advantage for the current deck composition but it was probably the level 2 count. I played Hiopt2 at the same table as a 1.0 BC level 3 count player that I knew personally. Our bets were never exactly in synch. Usually he would raise his bet sooner and lower it sooner even though the counts are very similar.

I count the 7s I used my own version of TKO system. My own version of TKO instead of using the key count to rise my bet I a current count starting 8 equivalent to TC of 1 with half deck played then add one for another half deck played in the first deck RC =9 equivalent to TC of 1. At any point of the shoe I looked at the discard tray and add three for every deck played. Two deck in the discard tray the RC is 12. I usually was able to estimate the deck to half deck level I would add 2 for the half decks. Knowing that it is equal to about TC of 1. But anyways.

If the backcounter is using a level 2 count he was trying to count two tables.

[seriousplayer]

Give him a dirty look and then spill a drink across the spots you aren't playing. If he doesn't get the message a more personal lesson may be in order.

Good idea! I will steal that idea.

[Freightman]

Blackjack is not a contact sport.

I don't see why not. About 25 years ago, I was attacked in the men's room at a bridge club. - no shit. Guess he didn't care for my transfer squeeze. The first punch was his, it knocked me backwards, the next 100 or so were mine. I was younger and meaner in those days.

[seriousplayer]

Does it help if I spread to multiple hands to steal the good cards?

[Bubbles]

I read in a book once that the author was annoyed with a backcounter. I think it was Ian Anderson in turning the tables, but I'm not certain. When the backcounter wonged in, Ian said, "there's that lucky player again. Every time you come over I win!" The backcounter didn't bother his table after that.

One place I was wonging once I had a similar experience. I was always polite and asked if I could join the table. Once this guy told me, "No. You can wait until shuffle. Thanks for letting me know to raise my bet." he changed his bet from 10$ to a few greens and muttered something to the floor person about young kids doing all the thinking for him. I never bothered his table again, so I suppose it worked.

[Three]

T3. You can't do that you frazy crucker...dirty looks never work.

The point is he can't enter the table when the spots are wet. They won't deal to them. The point of the glare is to make sure he knows it was his backcounting that got the other spots at the table closed. Then he will realize there is no point backcounting your table because he won't be able to wong in when the count gets to where he wants it. If he does he is just wasting his time.

[moo321]

Give him a dirty look and then spill a drink across the spots you aren't playing. If he doesn't get the message a more personal lesson may be in order.

Am I understanding your advice correctly, you think the best play is to do a move that draws attention to both of you, and risks shutting down the table in the middle of a high count? In order to avoid someone who might bring heat on you and affect your playing conditions?

[seriousplayer]

The point is he can't enter the table when the spots are wet. They won't deal to them. The point of the glare is to make sure he knows it was his backcounting that got the other spots at the table closed. Then he will realize there is no point backcounting your table because he won't be able to wong in when the count gets to where he wants it. If he does he is just wasting his time.

It does seem like the backcounter is wasting his time. What I noticed was he is counting a full table no seat open. I am guessing that he is hoping that when the count turns positive a player would leave the table and he could wongin. If I were to backcount and the table is full I would go look for another table. No, sense counting a full table. Walking back and forth between two tables. I don't think that he realize I know what he is doing and I am also really good at using the technique backcounting and Wongin/Wongout. But in some casinos I find backcounting not too practical because some players think that I am following them around. So I alter my style of play to use wongout when the shoe turns negative and table hop, table hop, table hop. Arnold Snyder was right table hopping does improve win rate.

[moo321]

What card counting system would tell you to drop out at a TC of 2 when a level one count system identify there is an advantage?

Possibly something that considers 7s and 9s. Also possible the deck was light on 2s and 3s, but really heavy on 5s.

He also may have figured out you were counting also, and he left. In which case, he's a gentleman and you should buy him a drink (don't understand why other posters are taking a dump on this guy?) It's also possible he was just some guy, not a card counter at all.

I started to get frustrated because the are stealing good cards from me. I got angry dropped out and went to the bathroom. When I left I think the true count was about +5.

Consider learning to better separate your emotions from your blackjack play. The Stoics, like Marcus Aurelius, have some great writings on this.

So what would you do in that situation?

Ask the muggles to wait. If they don't, keep playing. Get the money out into a +5 TC.

[Three]

Am I understanding your advice correctly, you think the best play is to do a move that draws attention to both of you, and risks shutting down the table in the middle of a high count? In order to avoid someone who might bring heat on you and affect your playing conditions?

I suppose they could close the table but I have never seen that happen, ever. Of course you can't do this much but eventually no backcounters count your table so you don't have to.