How do you get a low N0 for this Blackjack game?

[seriousplayer]

I have been looking at some of the Blackjack games in Atlantic City recently. I noticed that recently most Atlantic City casinos offer eight deck Blackjack game in their main casino floor. But in the high limit room some casino like Borgata and Bally's offer six deck Blackjack with S17, DAS with a house edge of -.40% using perfect basic strategy. The six deck S17,DAS blackjack game is only worth playing with good penetration of over 80% about one deck cut off. I did some simulation on the game and I was unable to get a N0 lower than 20000 with play all 1-16 bet spread full indices with 83% penetration. Using 1-20 it gets barely under 20000. Even using the most sophisticated card counting system like Wong Halves and Hi-OPT 2 along with side counting of Aces. In Atlantic City backcounting is not practical. The only solution is to use wongout at TC -1 or play two hands. But using Wongout in high limit pit might not be practical because there is not enough tables for you to table hop.

But with 75% penetration the N0 get over 35000 with play all 1-16 bet spread full indices. What AP method can you use to get a lower N0 for Six Deck S17, DAS game with 75% penetration? Low N0 I mean under 20000.

[Dog Hand]

<snip>But with 75% penetration the N0 get over 35000 with play all 1-16 bet spread full indices. What AP method can you use to get a lower N0 for Six Deck S17, DAS game with 75% penetration? Low N0 I mean under 20000.

Simple: increase the "16".

Dog Hand

[Bigdaddy]

Also consider game speed. The simulations use a standard of 100 rounds per hour. But if you can get a fast game (uncrowded table and fast dealer), you could probably get closer to 200 rounds per hour. That's the same as doubling your SCORE and cutting your N0 in half in terms of hours.

[BJGenius007]

Simple: increase the "16".

Dog Hand

Increase the "16" to 100 or 1000 like in the movie "21". You need a partner though.

[Three]

In Atlantic City backcounting is not practical. The only solution is to use wongout at TC -1 or play two hands. But using Wongout in high limit pit might not be practical because there is not enough tables for you to table hop.

Since you are talking about AC, you can casino hop rather than table hop once further table hopping has become impractical. However you may want to avoid some high limit rooms altogether. Some HL rooms are just too sweaty. When casino hopping is an option it should be seriously considered. Too many destinations in the East make casino wonging impossible or at least impractical. If you worry about hourly including when you are not betting then you might not like this. If you worry about hourly for the actual time you expose yourself to detection by the casino by making bets it has no effect. In these days when heat is a major consideration worrying about the former hourly is silly. That is just not the most important factor to longterm profits. Being welcomed back to win again is important. I mean who plans on playing nonstop all day? I would mention game speed but your question was about n0 (SCORE). Game speed doesn't affect n0. Not much that affects n0 is in your control. You have pen which is about choosing the dealer that gives the best. You have spread which is constrained by casino tolerance (there are ways of getting away with larger spreads but they are best not discussed in the open forum). You have your wonging style which is moderated by casino tolerances and rules like NMSE. Playing 2 hands is the only thing that you can do. Why do you act like playing 2 hands is problematic? For 2 hand play-all 80% pen with Hiopt2/ASC and an optimal 16:1 ramp and the game you described I get a n0 of 16343. That is significantly under 20000

[davethebuilder]

Also consider game speed. The simulations use a standard of 100 rounds per hour. But if you can get a fast game (uncrowded table and fast dealer), you could probably get closer to 200 rounds per hour. That's the same as doubling your SCORE and cutting your N0 in half in terms of hours.

SCORE is a game comparison statistic that takes into account the rules, pen and risk as well as betting and playing techniques. The only parameter it does not consider is game speed. That is, for any given game you can double your hands per hour which will double your win rate but the SCORE remains the same.

SCORE = (1000*w/SD)² where optimal betting is used with a $10,000 bankroll.

w = one hand win rate
SD = one hand standard deviation

N0(n-zero) is the number of rounds that need to be played to overcome a negative fluctuation of one Standard Deviation assuming a fixed bet spread and is proportional to SCORE.

N0 = (1000)²/SCORE.

So, to lower the N0, increase the SCORE.

[seriousplayer]

Also consider game speed. The simulations use a standard of 100 rounds per hour. But if you can get a fast game (uncrowded table and fast dealer), you could probably get closer to 200 rounds per hour. That's the same as doubling your SCORE and cutting your N0 in half in terms of hours.

Game speed does not have any effect on SCORE and N0. The SCORE for 200 per hand would be the same as 100 per hand.

[seriousplayer]

Why do you act like playing 2 hands is problematic? For 2 hand play-all 80% pen with Hiopt2/ASC and an optimal 16:1 ramp and the game you described I get a n0 of 16343. That is significantly under 20000

My question was about play all 75% penetration not 80% I already know that with 80 or greater penetration the N0 would go under 20000. Firstly, you will not always find a casino that offers 80% penetration. For 2 hand play-all 75% pen with Hiopt2/ASC and an optimal 16:1 ramp and the game you described I get a n0 of 24273 heads up.

For some casino it require 2 x min bet to play two hands but not in Atlantic City.

[Bigdaddy]

Game speed does not have any effect on SCORE and N0. The SCORE for 200 per hand would be the same as 100 per hand.

Maybe Don S can chime in to clarify this a bit further, but I will leave you with this assertion:

All other factors held constant, a game with a SCORE of 25 that is dealt at 200 rounds/hour is just as good as a game with a SCORE of 50 that is dealt at 100 rounds/hour. The winrate and variance per hour is the same for both games.

[seriousplayer]

Maybe Don S can chime in to clarify this a bit further, but I will leave you with this assertion:

All other factors held constant, a game with a SCORE of 25 that is dealt at 200 rounds/hour is just as good as a game with a SCORE of 50 that is dealt at 100 rounds/hour. The winrate and variance per hour is the same for both games.

There are couple of factors that have an impact on game speed. Dealers have a very big influence on game speed. There are some factors that will decrease the game speed in casinos. For example, filling the chip tray, shuffling up the deck, changing the deck, players buying in, and if a casino is using an automatic shuffler to shuffle up the cards malfunction of the machine also decrease game speed. If someone spills a drink cleaning it up also decrease game speed.

[Three]

My question was about play all 75% penetration not 80% I already know that with 80 or greater penetration the N0 would go under 20000. Firstly, you will not always find a casino that offers 80% penetration. For 2 hand play-all 75% pen with Hiopt2/ASC and an optimal 16:1 ramp and the game you described I get a n0 of 24273 heads up.

For some casino it require 2 x min bet to play two hands but not in Atlantic City.

I guess I read it wrong or you didn't write your intentions out correctly. Not worth checking but my bet is the former. I get a n0 about half the way closer to 20,000 than you do but still north of the mark.

For your firstly you don't have to play if you don't like the game. I get you are trying to figure a way to make it a game you would play. Those giving unnecessary terminology lessons to you who knows the terms may not understand you are talking about decreasing volatility or increasing certainty. There are ways to do it with counting but you must go beyond the approaches normally used. I am not going to publish it on the open board but if you want to PM me I can get the n0 for the conditions you are talking about down to 15970. It is using linear counting only a little more complicated than the traditional approaches. You will probably choose not to use it. It will be playing 2 hands play-all.

[DSchles]

Can't add to the above. SCORE is defined as 100 hands per hour. It is a comparative tool. If you play twice as fast, your hourly win rate will double. Your SCORE won't double, because SCORE doesn't permit you to play 200 hands an hour.

When the EPA sticker on the window says 25 mpg, if you personally get 20, that doesn't change the number on the sticker. But, it does mean that YMMV.

Don

[Three]

I can help you but not on the open boards for a few reasons. I tried to PM you but you are not a subscriber.