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Thread: Most important indices for Spanish 21

  1. #53


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    I have them but, if they've not been published online, then perhaps there's still something secret about it after all. I don't know if the author still reads these forums or not. There are others here who know him and who could perhaps advise on whether the indices are ok to share or not.

  2. #54
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Chinasore View Post
    " ... secret monkey count ... I was not able to find the indicies.

    Do you happen to have a link for them?
    I have them.

    A Full Set.

    Contact me.

  3. #55


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    I have them.

    A Full Set.

    Contact me.
    Just sent you a friend request.

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chinasore View Post
    "Most casinos near me in new england have
    s17, 6D games S21 games. Nothing else."
    WRONG !

    The Del Lago Casino near Rochester, NY is the

    only Eastern casino with a 6 deck SP21 game.

    ALL of the rest are EIGHT DECKS. (8d)

  5. #57
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Chinasore ...

    [email protected]

    note: odd double use of .com

  6. #58


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    Does anyone have the indices for the SMC by chance? I’ve been using just basing strategy for SP21 and am looking to improve my EV.

  7. #59


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    Does anyone know if the H17 re-double or the S17 no re-double version of Spanish 21 is better for counting? I’m also curious about the secret monkey count’s viability (profitability, variance, risk of ruin) as opposed to counting in a blackjack game using TKO.
    Last edited by RatherNotGiveMyRealName; 09-20-2019 at 06:19 PM.

  8. #60


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    Quote Originally Posted by DezertEagle99 View Post
    Does anyone have the indices for the SMC by chance? I’ve been using just basing strategy for SP21 and am looking to improve my EV.
    I'm likely saying something you already know, but just in case you didn't, Katarina Walker's book has a counting system which is a decent amount better than basic strategy. While there are many better systems (SMC is superior to Kat's count, though inferior to most of the systems that serious players use, which involves side counting aces), this KatCount option is much better than simply using basic strategy. I have the index numbers for Secret Monkey Count, but am not allowed to give them out (I was given permission by the creator to receive this info, but not to distribute). : (

    A note that (in my opinion) the H17 version without redoubling isn't worth counting. The difference between H17 and S17 in Spanish 21 is far greater than in blackjack, and if only the H17 game is near you, I'd stick to blackjack. The H17 with redoubling is a more interesting situation, and I don't know if many sims were done for it, to demonstrate whether it can realistically be beaten.

    Quote Originally Posted by RatherNotGiveMyRealName View Post
    Does anyone know if the H17 re-double or the S17 no re-double version of Spanish 21 is better for counting? I’m also curious about the secret monkey count’s viability (profitability, variance, risk of ruin) as opposed to counting in a blackjack game using TKO.
    The S17 (no redouble, obviously- S17 with redoubling doesn't exist...) version has had far more simulations and research done, and many (ZenMaster, Tthree, many others who aren't as vocal on this forum) have determined that counting it is superior to doing so in blackjack, especially where few/no S17 regular blackjack games are available. There are many threads on this forum (often with T3 writing long amounts of info in long and helpful posts) which discuss counting methods for Spanish 21 S17. Just do a search. I don't have SMC variance and risk of ruin info- the people I know who count Spanish 21 S17 all use more complicated systems, and I do have RoR info for the system that I use (level 3 balanced side count, level 1 balanced main count). Some Spanish 21 count systems are MUCH more complicated, and others are just a bit more complicated. But it does appear that using a side count of aces is far more helpful in Spanish 21 than in regular blackjack, for which the additional gain is not as high. I use Halves in Blackjack, but the simulations convinced me that for Spanish 21, a side count of aces (I use a balanced one, though not all do this, and an adjustment based on surplus/deficit aces works as well) is the way to go. If you have a simulator, or have access to one, feel free to confirm.

    For information about counting Spanish 21 in general, you can also do searches for threads that have "Spanish" in them, confirm they are related to SP21, and read through them. One can also try looking at threads that I've posted in- it seems like I have under 80 posts since I created my account in 2012, and almost all of them, and the threads they are in, likely relate to Spanish 21, which is the only game I've been counting for many many years.
    Last edited by All Clear; 09-22-2019 at 11:15 PM. Reason: Frown face originally showed up as a smile.

  9. #61


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    I do have Kats book but I got in to the SMC after looking through the forums. I’ve had better “luck” with it. Originally I started out with blackjack because I wasn’t confident in learning basic strategy for SP21. After about a year playing blackjack I learned it and definitely like the more favorable rules in SP21. I mostly play SP21 S17, with DD Rescue (I’m in the northeast) but was looking to see if there were any particular plays based on count that would boost EV. I completely understand that you can’t give them out but I would like to use them at some point if I can get permission by the creator.

  10. #62


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    Quote Originally Posted by DezertEagle99 View Post
    I do have Kats book but I got in to the SMC after looking through the forums. I’ve had better “luck” with it. Originally I started out with blackjack because I wasn’t confident in learning basic strategy for SP21. After about a year playing blackjack I learned it and definitely like the more favorable rules in SP21. I mostly play SP21 S17, with DD Rescue (I’m in the northeast) but was looking to see if there were any particular plays based on count that would boost EV. I completely understand that you can’t give them out but I would like to use them at some point if I can get permission by the creator.
    "Automatic Monkey" is the handle for the creator of SMC ("Secret Monkey Count"). It became less of a secret as time went by, and is a level-2 counting system for Spanish 21, designed for the S17 game. If you don't have index numbers for it (or as you put it, "particular plays based on count"), I don't know if it is a good idea to use this counting system over Katarina's "KatCount" that she describes in her book.

    But yes, there are many particular plays. 13 v 4-6, 14 v 2-6, 15 v 2-4 come up often, especially since those often are 6-7-8 draws. Doubling 11 v 9-A.... Adjustments for bonus draws- they come up more than one might expect, and EV is boosted by index plays more in Spanish 21 than blackjack. When I got into counting Spanish 21 there was far more discussion of the game here- Walker's book had come out within the past year or so- and more people were simming the game, with various (more complicated) counting systems.

    I'm in the Northeast as well. Of the other five people I know that count the game (all have posted on this forum, though none seem to be doing it recently)- four definitely are in the Northeast as well. Not sure about the fifth. Jersey and PA are all S17 in Spanish 21.

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