Most important indices for Spanish 21

[Freightman]

Freightman:
Withour reveiling those details that you might think in-appropriate, would you thus say that the Pacific NorthWest is still a fertile area for SP21 play? As I try to exploit this game, I wonder if this fabled area is still worth travelling to.... can you attempt to share your take on the availability of good games, heat , other considerations and anything else that you found over there???

My exposure was very limited. Xxx rule in effect - give Or take .42 or house edge. Worst rule, no biggie as far as I'm concerned was h17. My limited exposure included cried rable. Same fame with 1 or 2 players would be very worthwhile. Max bet was 300 on 5 or 10 min - forgot already.

[Freightman]

My exposure was very limited. Xxx rule in effect - give Or take .42 or house edge. Worst rule, no biggie as far as I'm concerned was h17. My limited exposure included cried rable. Same fame with 1 or 2 players would be very worthwhile. Max bet was 300 on 5 or 10 min - forgot already.

Also, apparent heavy exposure of sp 21 throughout much of the area. First store I was in, only spanish was open, then dd blackjack was open which I layer heads up while Spanish table was reasonably full.

[stringer]

Thought I would post this as a stand alone...
The next logical question is knowing Ace excess wrt to playing decisions... lets take that 11 vs dealer 10. Index # is -4. Rules as in previous post: Example to KEEP IT SIMPLE: 8 deck, 4 gone, TC is -4, 2 excess aces remain in shoe. OBVIOUSLY decision is swayed to hit and not double. For the purposes of playing decisions...might one subtract 2 from -16 to get -18 ... giving you a TC FOR PLAYING DECISION PURPOSES of -4.5 and thus a quantified number that calls for a hit instead of a double... Thoughts about this from our great SP21 minds?????

[ZenMaster_Flash]

In the H17 Span21 game the E.O.R. for the Ace is far less than it is for the S17 version.
That being said, in the H17 version, adjust the R. C. for Aces by quarter (spanish) deck
by adding / subtracting double the value for your Faces; so ... if you count Faces as -2
then each SURPLUS Ace (per quarter deck) moves the running count by +4, and if Aces
are in DEFICIT you use -4 to adjust the R.C.

Is that clear enough ?

NOTE: Failing to Side-Count Aces in Span21 is profoundly self-destructive.

[Phoebe]

The "Secret Monkey Count" does not alter the tag for the fives.

I did not say that.
Just why I planned to count 5 as +2.
Does this count has a name ?

BTW, I finally generate myself all indices for when someone answers my question.

[stopgambling]

Spanish 21 is often full of ploppies betting the side bet and is turtle slow.therefore it's not as great as it looks initially.

[Freightman]

Some Soft DD indices are strange:

Soft Double Down - A5 vs. 6: No Double Down

Soft Double Down - A4 vs. 6: No Double Down

It's not blackjack, it's Spanish. If you think that's strange try double 7v6.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"It's not blackjack, it's Spanish. If you think that's strange try double 7v6."

YES, Basic Strategy (Initial Double) - ONLY in games that offer "ddd", the redouble rule.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Some Soft DD indices are strange:

Soft Double Down - A5 vs. 6: No Double

Soft Double Down - A4 vs. 6: No Double

IF this sound's strange it is because if you HIT you may get an Ace or a Deuce, and THEN double.

You may even then have the chance to re-double following a Soft Double, or play for the multi-card bonus.

This is certainly a very complex game, when compared to blackjack.

[Zach Black]

What are most important indices to compute for Spanish 21 ?
Katarina Walker's book is at home and until now I did not use playing departure.

Per Katrina Walker (using unbalanced hilo with IRC=-4 x number of decks)

1) Only indices from -6 to +1
2) delete all pair splitting
3) delete all soft hands
4) for hands of 11 or less delete all indices below -3
5) for hands of 9 or less, delete all indices greater than -1
6) If redoubling allowed, delete all indices for hands of 5 or 6
7) Delete all late surrender indices less than -4 or greater than -1.

[stringer]

In the H17 Span21 game the E.O.R. for the Ace is far less than it is for the S17 version.
That being said, in the H17 version, adjust the R. C. for Aces by quarter (spanish) deck
by adding / subtracting double the value for your Faces; so ... if you count Faces as -2
then each SURPLUS Ace (per quarter deck) moves the running count by +4, and if Aces
are in DEFICIT you use -4 to adjust the R.C.

Is that clear enough ?

NOTE: Failing to Side-Count Aces in Span21 is profoundly self-destructive.

Thanks Flash!!!!!

Before I pose another question or two, might I respectfully ask everyone to state clearly the variant of SP21 that they are talking about... there is the S17, H17 and DDD versions... Thanks

Anyway, the H17 version EOR's are in Katrina's book on page 52, but I did not find any EOR's for S17 which is the version that I am mostly interested in. A quick (but by no means exhaustive) look around the internet as well did not reveal that information. Flash, can I impose upon you to provide that information for the S17 game, I am really curious.

So you are obviously saying that since the EOR for the Ace is less in the H17 game you are doubling the value you assign to face cards for increasing/decreasing the RC per excess/deficit of Aces per quarter deck. Got it.

BUT, for the S17 game, Kat Count hi-lo that would be too extreme. Do you know the "multiplication Factor"? I would guess it might be more like X1.3 to X1.6.
I know your group has run analysis/software on this game. Is this one of the things you looked at, and out of curiosity how and/or from where did you get the X2 multiplier for the value of the face cards??
{and we are no-where near talking about how to adjust your playing strategy with additional Ace surplus/deficit infrormation}

Thanks for your and everyone's efforts....

[stringer]

Kat's EOR's are wrong.
EoR of the ace is about 2 times the faces for H17 and closer to 3 times the faces for S17. Traditional ace reckoned and ace neutral counts both have issues with this. This is why people use balanced ace side counts in SP21. You get a really strong playing main count and every ace reckoned at its true strength when the counts are combined. The actual EoR of the ace is really really squishy and changes a lot depending on deck composition. Extreme surplus of faces (if you have a strong playing count with lots of surrender indices and bonus draw indices) or extreme deficits of face cards compared to ace density increase advantage in S17 games but in H17 surplus of faces compared to aces has a much bigger effect than deficit of faces compared to aces. I am not sure about ddd games but the fact that you double most hands that have multi-card bonus payout potential which voids the bonus reduces the return from multi-card bonuses. Squeezing EV out of SP21 is very complicated. Interaction between your betting strategy and playing strategy are very important. Some deck compositions have a large advantage from increased multi-card bonus likelihood while others have a large advantage based on getting strong hands and using lots of large positive indices. Without the indices you lose the large gain. Most hands in SP21 are index plays. If you have a ridiculous number of indices you gain EV on all those hands whether your decision is the same or not. The added indices for all the different types of the same matchup have extra EV each time they are dealt. Gain is does not have to do with the current deck composition. EV comes from the gain from all the situations averaged to get the index play. You never know the current deck composition so EV depends on the average gain for the playing TC and the type of hand it is for the matchup. Basically the difference between the 2 decisions in graphs like these that are different for each type of total:

https://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer3.htm

For 14v4 you would have a different index and graph for:
1) 2 card 14
2) 4 card 14
3) 5 card 14
4) 6 or more card 14
5) mixed 8,6
6) suited 8,6
7) spaded 8,6

Each of these 7 kinds of 14 has a different index and a different rate of gain after the index is exceeded as indicated by its graph. To get the most EV out of playing 14v4 you need to know all these indices. The same is true for every matchup. You need to know all the possible indices for that matchup. Surrender indices are specific top types of hands. Obviously 16 is never a bonus draw if you are considering surrender but 13 (6,7), 14 (6,8), and 15 (7,8) can be if they are the hand in parentheses. This all varies by count but strong playing counts would add extra EV every time one of the type 2-7 hands occur. By having them separate the 2 card index is stronger as well. This occurs for every matchup you play to varying degrees. The constant addition of small amounts of EV adds up fast. With a strong interaction between the bets and a strong playing count it can double your EV and that is with little change in standard deviation since most of the gain comes without risking more money so SCORE is almost quadrupled. Don't expect that type of performance with the weak counts being discussed here.

SP21 is a complex game that necessitates complex strategies if you don't want crazy variance. Huge gains can be had from advanced playing strategies as well as advanced betting strategies associated with complex counts. The game is extremely nonlinear. You need to find the ways to exploit the nonlinearity in order to tame the crazy variance associated with using a typical linear approach used in BJ. A typical linear approach will work but the variance will be extreme and you will almost always be betting wrong. Most of the time slightly over betting the actual advantage. Rarely betting appropriately and less often severely under betting the actual advantage. This cause crazy swings for your BR. Weak playing counts and insufficient indices contribute to the crazy swings.

Okay... looks like I got it backwards... thank you Tthree for your excellent post.
If indeed EoR of the ace is about 2 times the faces for H17 and closer to 3 times the faces for S17, you are thus agreeing with Flash and that seems to make sense.


I am not saying your are wrong, but you state flat out that Kats EOR'S ARE WRONG. Her detailed explanation on this subject at page 52 as it compares to BJ seem to make a lot of sense. Her exacting calculations in the rest of the book make your conclusion very surprising. And the more I think about it, the more confused I am about why exactly the EOR for the ace should be less significant in the H17 game as opposed to the S17 game.

Anyway, as a starting point, do you have the EOR's for the three SP21 variants so we can compare them and get a handle on this as a very first step? if for whatever reason you do not wish to disclose them, I will understand. I do not believe I have ever seen EOR numbers for the 3 variants anywhere.

I am still chewing over the rest of your post, but it seems to make sense. As a starting point, I just wanted to [ using Kat-count hi-lo, S17, 50 of her most important indices, IRC 8 deck of -32] use the seperate side-count of aces information to the best effect. In other words add to the RC a number 2 to 3 times the value of the tens in the count |[in this case -1]| times the number of Aces in excess at any point in the shoe to determine the new running count for the purposes of betting.. and ramping accordingly....

I can fully appreciate that more powerful counts exist and other more powerful tools can be used, but for the moment I would like to get maximum traction out of the Kat count....
thanks again

[All Clear]

Some Soft DD (and only soft DD) indices are strange.
With SMC:

Soft Double Down - A6 vs. 4: DD >= 7
Soft Double Down - A5 vs. 6: No Double Down
Soft Double Down - A4 vs. 6: No Double Down

In regard to the bolded line, unless you are using an odd count, that number doesn't make sense. It isn't the index I use (I can't give out- proprietary info), and Wizard of Odds has it (in the S17 game) as a Double as basic strategy- even if you aren't counting cards.