A Question About Money

[Clint]

(I've asked a form of this question before but wanna to give it another try). I've been trying to find books on BJ and many are out of print. I've started to wonder, with all the stories of people making money from BJ in the past - along with counter measures from casinos like 4 to 6 decks, surveillance, frequent shuffling, altering rules to improve the house odds, is it still possible to make money from BJ using a solid knowledge of Basic Strategy along with card counting? Or is that a thing of the past? Any hard data - rather than guesses - would be much appreciated.

[hitthat16]

Yes, it is possible. This forum is full of people with hard data of winning at BJ.

[Stealth]

The answer is yes, but it is far from easy.

You will need a good understanding of the games math and the math around managing a bankroll, a sound technical skill level, a larger than you suspect bankroll, time to play, a good understanding of how to stay under the radar, a very, and a very strong personality to withstand the high variance (wins/losses), back offs and trespasses that you will encounter along the way.

I believe it is viable source of income as an avocation, but the pressures and demands are too great to be a vocation.

These are not guesses, I have either played or "been involved with" over 4,000 sessions and have the detailed records, and yes we are winning.

[blackjackomaha]

The answer is yes, but it is far from easy.

You will need a good understanding of the games math and the math around managing a bankroll, a sound technical skill level, a larger than you suspect bankroll, time to play, a good understanding of how to stay under the radar, a very, and a very strong personality to withstand the high variance (wins/losses), back offs and trespasses that you will encounter along the way.

I believe it is viable source of income as an avocation, but the pressures and demands are too great to be a vocation.

These are not guesses, I have either played or "been involved with" over 4,000 sessions and have the detailed records, and yes we are winning.

+1. Stealth nailed most of the critical areas. You must have your eyes on the long-run, as you can experience large fluctuations from session to session -- this goes back to understanding the math, both for the specific game you're targeting, as well as managing your bankroll.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of game quality. Just because a game can be beaten does not mean it's the best use of your time.

[marriedputter]

I would urge you to read this old post by Al Mucous. It says it better than I ever could.

https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...4532#post34532

Let me try being helpful. The income is not tax free. It is income. Tax evasion is a felony. If you want to make money via felonies you can do far more lucrative things than trying to win at blackjack and cheat the government.

'Lifestyle' --- this is subjective, and you've hit the nail on the head really: it's the determining factor. The lifestyle is beyond hellish from any conventional point of view. You will work harder than you would in the straight world and for less money. For less money both in the near term (you'll earn less now, probably) and long term (because you'll build no resume, you'll do the opposite of establishing a future for yourself: you'll establish the inability to work in the future at anything other than gambling; if you also cheat the government through felony tax evasion you'll have no reasonable record of income and hence no ability to have relationships with the very useful conventional financial sector for purposes such as mortgages). The variance will make you insane if you need income within 12 months. The only way I've seen people stay remotely sober while gambling professionally or even quasi-professionally is by setting aside enough in living expenses that their current result makes no difference, zero difference, to their overall financial situation: they are earning money for living expenses a year or two down the road, and their current life experience can't be affected in any way by what happens this month or in the next several months of blackjack.

Even more sincerely: the casino begins wearing on your heart. You see what's ugliest in human relations. The casino is an enterprise that seeks only to exploit. It provides no service -- none. No 'entertainment,' and everyone on the inside knows it. Watching 'friendly' marketers or casino execs spin lies to drunk, vulnerable *******s day in and out leaves you with not a lot of positive zest in your soul. It affects you. The players are *******s for being players and degenerates and the casino staff are *******s for dedicating their professional lives to bashing in the brains of the degenerates (while also, of course, chasing off, or rather treating as criminals those few really brave card counters and other advantage players who actually take all the casino 'you can win money here!' marketing bull**** in earnest: you're a criminal for seeking to live the exact dream the casino sells). Everyone is a monster in this world. You'll become one too, just you wait. Your compassion for the degenerates will wain to nothing. They're basically in your way and slowing down games and also saddening you through their own blindness. You'll find yourself turning into an obnoxious driver. You'll never be going fast enough. Because time is always money and because you could always be in a casino somewhere earning money rather than stuck in traffic or visiting ****ing in-laws or doing whatever you're doing, and because the casino environment has cemented in your imagination the concept that nothing matters but result, nothing matters but the 'winning' they constantly pretend to be selling, and because you're stuck after a couple hundred hours of tough variance and you're starting to doubt yourself and you need to prove things to yourself or your spouse or some demon, you'll begin finding life tedious, finding everything that stands in the way of you and your just desserts -- your EV or your cash-in-fist, the ****ing prosperity you've sweated so hard to generate -- worthless, absurd. You'll turn into a real *******, just you wait.

Of course, you also asked for hard data. Well, the data is solid, but you would need the data from an experienced counter that depends on BJ funds for their livelihood. I am no such player so I can not provide that. It can be done, but it is very difficult with current rules. The real question is: Is it worth it? It's not a positive atmosphere. It's the only job you can get fired from for doing it perfectly. And if you think that your boss doesn't care about you in your current job, imagine how they feel about you with this one.

[stopgambling]

I liked post 22 , even though it's not dead on but close. The change in personality is the other scary but i don't think it would be that way with discipline and periodically checking one's sanity.

[stopgambling]

Your compassion for the degenerates will wain to nothing. They're basically in your way and slowing down games and also saddening you through their own blindness. You'll find yourself turning into an obnoxious

just loves this one .

[ZeeBabar]

"Everyone is a monster in this world. You'll become one too, just you wait. Your compassion for the degenerates will wain to nothing. They're basically in your way and slowing down games and also saddening you through their own blindness. You'll find yourself turning into an obnoxious driver"

i am on a dozen forums but it's true that most fulltime AP's on this and the other forums are a class by themselves. Other than a few gentleman (Norm, Don S., Tthree) most have become a$$$&&s and the way they get on this forum and the other one in particular to be nasty is unbelievable. I have come to the conclusion that full time AP'ing has bad side effects that can and will make you less of a human being in the long run.

[Bodarc]

I have come to the conclusion that full time AP'ing has bad side effects that can and will make you less of a human being in the long run.

You're not my ex-wife in disguise are you?

[Stealth]

I have come to the conclusion that full time AP'ing has bad side effects that can and will make you less of a human being in the long run.

Wow! Once again, a thread whose topic is "A question about money!" and this is a response. Do you profile everyone using this same logic?

So, we are all lower than whale shit but you are lucky to remain above it all?

[TheWhale]

Whale shit?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ZeeBabar]

Wow! Once again, a thread whose topic is "A question about money!" and this is a response. Do you profile everyone using this same logic?

So, we are all lower than whale shit but you are lucky to remain above it all?

Just read the Post I responded to. It talks about the effect on personality. I did not start it but thanks for the demonstration.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Possible?

Plausible?

Pragmatic?

This is a complex issue.

It is possible. I have done it for decades.

Can YOU do it? Perhaps / Probably Not.

Is this a 'practical' career choice? NO.