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Thread: Thoughts while training and R7

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    Thoughts while training and R7

    Ok so I'm still in the early part of my training and some thoughts have been really nagging me... this might be a bit ramble-y but lets see if I can communicate my thoughts... I'll put cliffs at the end once I see everything I typed out

    Unedited questions/ramblings skip if it makes you're eyes bleed

    I think I'm at a fork in the road, I've been working on TC conversion and its easy enough but I think learning the indices for hi-lo is going to be daunting for me. (I like to learn concepts but struggle more with straight memorization because I don't enjoy it). I've started training for Hi-lo but been going back and forth with deciding to learn zen or Hi-lo since I thought it seems like the same amount of work learning wise (I'm a empty cup), I doubt adding 1's and 2's should be much harder than 1's as I was only worried about accurate TC conversions mostly. I read a lot of posts however that discourage it (as well as people that say go for it) so I have to conclude that its gonna be significantly harder to pull off in real time than I think. I was counting my last session and realized I kind of blanked out while trying to play my hand, TC convert, and listen to people and look human. It was pretty easy on the app...

    Then it hit me, I could just use the Red 7 since I can't see how I could possibly make any errors as long as I can add and subtract 1's. easy. Several online posts as well as BBiBJ by AS says it takes 80% of Hilo win rate in shoe games which I pretty much plan to exclusively play. That seems good enough to me honestly if it is true but I think there may be some hidden things that aren't said.

    (this next part is confusing, disregard if it makes no sense)

    for example R7 we will always start at -12 off the top so it takes a long time before we can ever increase our bets compared to just +6/6 decks early off playing hi-lo. I was wondering what the average betting round trend would look like if we compared them.
    R7 will always look like (units bet 1=min bet 2= two units etc) 11111111112356 for example since we have to fight through -12
    hi lo can go 1211245 since its possible to get like RC+4 first round then RC+8 next R7 we would still be betting 1 anyway...
    I realized this isn't a question lol sorry

    I just have a hunch the std is going to be different and likely for the worse. Or theres something else negative about the R7 besides the reduced win rate but idk what it is. If the only difference is reduced win rate than great! I can lay back and just bet more with all the freed up brain I have now.

    R7

    -To wong in, do we have to wait from -12 to 0? because they say 0 is the pivot (even or slightly ahead edge). Hi lo it would be pivot at TC+1 or a RC of 6 since 6 decks are unseen. This would suck because I do "drive by wonging" where I don't really stand and back count I jus count all the tables as I walk since BJ tables are lined up, once I see a RC+2 or 3, I pause and walk over to the table then hope it goes up, if not I jus keep on going and never return for the day. (I walk through the casinos a lot so I have many opportunities for this).

    -betting ramp suggested is

    negative=1 units
    RC2 through 6=2 units
    RC 6= 3 units
    RC 8 =4 units
    RC12 through 16=8 units

    This seems way too weak to me by the time I'm through fighting through -12 I'm about ready to blast off. At RC0 I bet 2 units and RC1 4 units, RC2 8units, RC3+ 16 or 20 units. Now this is no doubt overbetting or whatever but I can't see how this guy thinks we are going to get to +16 and bet 8 units. Or am I misunderstanding him, his way we have to go from -12 to +12 jus to get 8 units out??! And I rarely see those sky high counts

    so what would be a good betting spread for R7, 6decks, H17, 70% pen, DAS, aces split once the typical low stakes LV game i guess is my question. I also realized something I'm trying to figure out is what is the "most valuable" RC for R7? like the one with frequency and money out. Like in hi lo we may get out 20 units at TC 10 but it never happens while at TC2 we get out 6 units so it makes us more money. OK let me clean this up and put the cliffs down now that I think I know what I am asking.

    CLIFFS

    -I think I will switch to R7 due to accuracy and ease

    -How do I wong in with R7?

    -Betting spread for R7?

    -Most valuable RC for R7? (I'm guessing its around 3? so I should get my max bet out by 4?

    -Is R7 going to attract more heat due to its weaker power, in the sense where maybe I have too spread to aggressively or something idk? Is it possible to be a R7 ninja? 70-80% of Hilo win rate in shoe games realistic as published?

    -Thank you for reading/answering! How can I help out/contribute around here? should I jump in the "which count should I use?" or one of the voodoo threads and flame/get flamed for your entertainment?

    -Might just go back to training for Hilo... or maybe I might as well go zen... hmm ahhh dammit

    Thank you much love

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by ChampangePloppy View Post
    I doubt adding 1's and 2's should be much harder than 1's
    not true , a lot more work. It is worth it for some people ,especially for pitch and good pen game.

  3. #3


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    Well, you have come to the right place to get schooled on "best count". LOL

    When I read between the lines it seems to me that you are struggling with Hi-Lo and certainly when having to put it together with playing at the casino.

    It has been my experience that new counters progress rapidly through learning to count down decks and using some of the online tools that present cards to you. Then conclude they are accomplished counters and rush into playing and counting. You should realize that the difficulty is to learn how to cancel out hands and this is harder to teach and requires practice. I found backcounting live tables to be some of the best practice you can get. Think in terms of reducing your counting steps to as few as possible. If I look at a full table shoe game and see the dealer has just given himself an up card then I expect to have a running count of the table within a couple of seconds at the most. I then add that to my "held" running count. You must be able to look holistically at the table and eliminate in spots, across spots, and in any other way possible.

    When this skill is mastered, then add playing and counting.

    Stop worrying about count and concentrate on learning Hi-Lo (not trying to get into a debate about counts just help this soldier out). After you are an accomplished counter with that system and have had time to become more knowledgeable about the cost and benefits of the others, you will be much better prepared to make a wise decision.

    Adding bet ramps and RoR and N0 and all the other stuff until the above is mastered will just add frustration to the process. You can eat an elephant, one bite at a time.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    When I first started counting I used red-7. It was a less overwhelming way to cut my counting teeth. After a little, I started to realize deck estimation didn't seem as daunting as it originally did. I got used to seeing the discards and could usually tell where we were in the shoe. I decided to switch to a balanced count because deck estimation no longer intimidated me and the extra accuracy seemed worth it.

    I can answer a few of your questions:

    -I think I will switch to R7 due to accuracy and ease
    It is much easier! I think it's a wonderful count for someone who plays recreationally, would like to count, but would not like to invest a lot into learning how to count. There might be some more accuracy on your part at first due to it being easier, but the count itself can be inaccurate. It relies on the red sevens to be evenly distributed throughout the shoe. It seemed antithetical to counting to me. We use counting to determine the uneven distribution of cards, but red-7 relies on the red 7's to not be affected in their location for the count to work properly.

    -How do I wong in with R7?
    Watch a table and back count it. When it gets to the pivot, or a positive count that you've determined as your starting point, sit down and start playing.

    -Is R7 going to attract more heat due to its weaker power, in the sense where maybe I have too spread to aggressively or something idk? Is it possible to be a R7 ninja? 70-80% of Hilo win rate in shoe games realistic as published?
    You will have to spread more with red-7 than you would with a more powerful count. This might get you heat. When they evaluate your play, they may determine you're betting into negative counts (when the red-7's are more distributed to the beginning of the shoe) and feel you're less of a threat. For the second part, I don't recall the EV of red-7 vs. hi-lo.

  5. #5
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    https://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

    From our illustrious gatekeeper/administrator, a comparison of MOST counts as to playing efficiency and betting efficiency. If you search the archives on this board you will find umpteen discussions on various counts, their good and bad points; difficulties, etc.

    Stealth is right. Choose one and practice.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #6
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Agree. The most important reason to select a strategy is to find one that you find comfortable using. Some people don't like making true count calculations. Some people don't like the wide ranges of counts that you run into using unbalanced strategies. Some people find index memorization easy -- some not. Some find multi-level counts simple -- some not. Some people are bothered by introducing suit colors into the count difficult -- some aren't. That's why we will NEVER have a suggested count here. It's up to the person. One size does NOT fit all.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    This is a better one from the same source. It allows ace neutral counts rot use ace side counts for betting only. Actual performance is better if you use the ace info for playing decisions as well.

    https://qfit.com/book/ModernBlackjackPage172.htm

  8. #8


    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Just stay away from Harrahs in Philly and Sands in bethlehem and no matter what you do, youll succeed.

  9. #9
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    LW, listen to what I am saying. All casinos are not created equal. If you figure out what is different from one casino to another you will learn a lot about what it takes to win consistently. Things differ from casino to casino like heat, crowding, predictability of crowding, penetration, average game speed while you are playing, types of shuffles, dealer errors and how options are presented; attitude of players, dealers and pit staff; number of tables open, predictability of when they change the cards, predictability of when they open more tables, incentives to show up, how the other players table hop and how this differs at various times of day, rules like NMSE, are there any tables that are away from high traffic flow, do they shuffle when a table empties, etc. All these things have an effect on winning. The idea that you should do the same at all casinos shows you have a lot to learn. You may notice that the list probably contains very little you think is important. If you examine how the casinos you lose at differ from the ones you win you will start to figure out how to find the conditions that make winning easier. Sometimes the games that look to have the best chance of winning actually are the toughest to win at. That is because playing in a casino is different than playing on a computer or sim results. If you start to drop the I've been cheated attitude you might learn how to avoid conditions that make it tough to win. The casinos that are the toughest to win at often look like they are the easiest. You may also discover that casinos you thought were a waste of time are in fact the easiest to win at because you have learned what is actually important to winning in a casino rather than in a sim or on a computer.

    I lost my ass for a while at Harrah's Philly. I had to adjust my attack strategy a few times before I started winning. I lost about $10K there. Then I figured it out and I have been beating them regularly with the occasional large lose that deep pen is expected to come with. I could see some obvious differences between HP and the places I normally play. They didn't seem important but the key to winning was not to be found from computer simulation. Recently I was worried I never lose there anymore. Of course that never lasts forever. LoL
    Last edited by Three; 09-27-2016 at 07:34 PM.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    LW, listen to what I am saying. All casinos are not created equal. If you figure out what is different from one casino to another you will learn a lot about what it takes to win consistently. Things differ from casino to casino like heat, crowding, predictability of crowding, penetration, average game speed while you are playing, types of shuffles, dealer errors and how options are presented; attitude of players, dealers and pit staff; number of tables open, predictability of when they change the cards, predictability of when they open more tables, incentives to show up, how the other players table hop and how this differs at various times of day, rules like NMSE, are there any tables that are away from high traffic flow, do they shuffle when a table empties, etc. All these things have an effect on winning. The idea that you should do the same at all casinos shows you have a lot to learn. You may notice that the list probably contains very little you think is important. If you examine how the casinos you lose at differ from the ones you win you will start to figure out how to find the conditions that make winning easier. Sometimes the games that look to have the best chance of winning actually are the toughest to win at. That is because playing in a casino is different than playing on a computer or sim results. If you start to drop the I've been cheated attitude you might learn how to avoid conditions that make it tough to win. The casinos that are the toughest to win at often look like they are the easiest. You may also discover that casinos you thought were a waste of time are in fact the easiest to win at because you have learned what is actually important to winning in a casino rather than in a sim or on a computer.

    I lost my ass for a while at Harrah's Philly. I had to adjust my attack strategy a few times before I started winning. I lost about $10K there. Then I figured it out and I have been beating them regularly with the occasional large lose that deep pen is expected to come with. I could see some obvious differences between HP and the places I normally play. They didn't seem important but the key to winning was not to be found from computer simulation. Recently I was worried I never lose there anymore. Of course that never lasts forever. LoL
    I've have been beating Harrah's Philly recently. The attack strategy I used to beat the game was table hop, wongin/wongout, and sometimes sit out and backcount. I would play at a new shuffle and then if the count is negative I drop out. If the count is positive I continue to play. I look for tables that is getting ready to shuffle when I table hop. Sometimes I play through the negative counts through the whole shoe. If the table is crowded I would spread to two hands to eat up the high cards. The techniques in Blackjack Attack really helped me?

  11. #11


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    LW, listen to what I am saying. All casinos are not created equal. If you figure out what is different from one casino to another you will learn a lot about what it takes to win consistently. Things differ from casino to casino like heat, crowding, predictability of crowding, penetration, average game speed while you are playing, types of shuffles, dealer errors and how options are presented; attitude of players, dealers and pit staff; number of tables open, predictability of when they change the cards, predictability of when they open more tables, incentives to show up, how the other players table hop and how this differs at various times of day, rules like NMSE, are there any tables that are away from high traffic flow, do they shuffle when a table empties, etc. All these things have an effect on winning. The idea that you should do the same at all casinos shows you have a lot to learn. You may notice that the list probably contains very little you think is important. If you examine how the casinos you lose at differ from the ones you win you will start to figure out how to find the conditions that make winning easier. Sometimes the games that look to have the best chance of winning actually are the toughest to win at. That is because playing in a casino is different than playing on a computer or sim results. If you start to drop the I've been cheated attitude you might learn how to avoid conditions that make it tough to win. The casinos that are the toughest to win at often look like they are the easiest. You may also discover that casinos you thought were a waste of time are in fact the easiest to win at because you have learned what is actually important to winning in a casino rather than in a sim or on a computer.

    I lost my ass for a while at Harrah's Philly. I had to adjust my attack strategy a few times before I started winning. I lost about $10K there. Then I figured it out and I have been beating them regularly with the occasional large lose that deep pen is expected to come with. I could see some obvious differences between HP and the places I normally play. They didn't seem important but the key to winning was not to be found from computer simulation. Recently I was worried I never lose there anymore. Of course that never lasts forever. LoL
    How much Harrahs pay you to write that? That was complete gibberish.

  12. #12


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    What tthree said is agreeable but he is often "long winded". I don't think it's gibberish just overkill at times.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    What tthree said is agreeable but he is often "long winded". I don't think it's gibberish just overkill at times.
    Gibberish as in poor advice. His advice made no sense whatsoever. I thank him for his input, but we'll agree to disagree.

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