Can you improve your PLaying Efficiency with Ace-reckoned counts?

**Jack Jackson** · 09-25-2016, 10:21 PM

Hmmm, i was just curious if it was possible to increase your PE and Insurance with Ace Reckoned counts? For example if i were using Zen count or Hi-Lo which tags the Ace at -1 is it not reasonable to assume that an ace "on average" is played every 1/4 deck? So now lets illustrate a 2 deck game with one deck played and we have a Running Count of Zero(tc=0) Now since logic dictates that an avg. of 4 aces have been played after 1 deck dealt and since we counted them as -1 THEN wouldnt it make sense to ADD +4 to our running count for Insurance and Stiff Hands of 12-16 for example? Anyway just a thought.

Additionally i was wondering if "index generations" take this into account?

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-26-2016, 06:45 AM

Using Hi-Opt II, I count Aces per Quarter-Deck,
but I have very accurate index adjustments for
Surplus / Deficit Aces that improves my P.E.

With most hands the Aces are inconsequential.
With some hands and with Insurance decisions
knowledge of the Aces is helpful.

For all doubling decisions Surplus/Deficit Aces
range between powerful and quasi-crucial.
For splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace,
each Ace is counted as TWO (2) Face Cards.

"But wait. There's more."

For your 9-9 vs. a dealer Ace, your ACES are
the equivalent of THREE (3) Face Cards.

Needless to say, Side-Counted Aces RADICALLY
improves Betting Correlation. With Hi-Opt II that
improves from 0.91 to 0.99, making the Ace Side
Count required for (any) non Ace Reckoned Count.

The additional value of Side Counted Aces resides
in your ability to play a more "polite" spread.

I also Side Count 7's in DD games, bringing my P.E.
way up. See The Theory of Blackjack chapter 5 on
"Multiparameter Card Counting Systems" to fully
understand this entire issue.

Do it. Do it now.

**Bubbles** · 09-26-2016, 08:44 AM

What value do you find in side counting 7's? They're already accounted for in the main count.

**lij45o6** · 09-26-2016, 09:21 AM

Griffin talks about the power of the 7 card. using the Einstein count with a side count of 7's would bring up the PE significantly. In singe deck games, basic with the count has a BC of 0.88 and PE of 0.615. Using sid count of A,7 brings both up to BC 0.97 and PE 0.736.

It should be noted that single param games can only offer a 700 point PE max, nut with a side count of the A,6 we can gain more info on the composition of the deck.

See Theory of Blackjack ch 5 pg 56 to 68.

**marriedputter** · 09-26-2016, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

For all doubling decisions Surplus/Deficit Aces
range between powerful and quasi-crucial.
For splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace,
each Ace is counted as TWO (2) Face Cards.

Splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace?

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-26-2016, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by marriedputter

"Splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace?"

My absolute favorite play.

With a H17 DD game I make this play fairly often.

Firstly, you must consider that the dealer cannot have a face card

for the hand to be playable. ACES are KEY CARDS. That means that

Surplus Aces radically increase your equity while sharply reducing

the dealer's equity and vice versa.

Hi-Opt II index for this split is +2. With the Aces valued at +/- 6

the following intriguing scenarios emerge:

With 2 Surplus Aces and the T.C. is MINUS 9 (+9) or above I split the 9's.

With 2 deficit Aces and the T.C. is PLUS 13 (+13) or below I stand on the 9's.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX !

**LoneWoLF** · 09-26-2016, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Using Hi-Opt II, I count Aces per Quarter-Deck,
but I have very accurate index adjustments for
Surplus / Deficit Aces that improves my P.E.

With most hands the Aces are inconsequential.
With some hands and with Insurance decisions
knowledge of the Aces is helpful.

For all doubling decisions Surplus/Deficit Aces
range between powerful and quasi-crucial.
For splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace,
each Ace is counted as TWO (2) Face Cards.

"But wait. There's more."

For your 9-9 vs. a dealer Ace, your ACES are
the equivalent of THREE (3) Face Cards.

Needless to say, Side-Counted Aces RADICALLY
improves Betting Correlation. With Hi-Opt II that
improves from 0.91 to 0.99, making the Ace Side
Count required for (any) non Ace Reckoned Count.

The additional value of Side Counted Aces resides
in your ability to play a more "polite" spread.

I also Side Count 7's in DD games, bringing my P.E.
way up. See The Theory of Blackjack chapter 5 on
"Multiparameter Card Counting Systems" to fully
understand this entire issue.

Do it. Do it now.

Wrong. BC goes to .98 NOT .99. Nice try though. Halves is still the king of counts and without the need to side count any card. Even with a weaker PE and IC.

**marriedputter** · 09-26-2016, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

My absolute favorite play.

With a H17 DD game I make this play fairly often.

Firstly, you must consider that the dealer cannot have a face card

for the hand to be playable. ACES are KEY CARDS. That means that

Surplus Aces radically increase your equity while sharply reducing

the dealer's equity and vice versa.

Hi-Opt II index for this split is +2. With the Aces valued at +/- 6

the following intriguing scenarios emerge:

With 2 Surplus Aces and the T.C. is MINUS 9 (+9) or above I split the 9's.

With 2 deficit Aces and the T.C. is PLUS 13 (+13) or below I stand on the 9's.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX !

I know about the play as I use the same count that you do. However your wording is confusing to me.

Read what you said again: Splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace.

So are the 9s against a 7 or an Ace? Or are you indicating both? I think you didn't mean to mention the 7 in that part of your post, as you mentioned the 7s toward the end of your post. I think you meant to say: Splitting 9's against/vs. a dealer Ace.

**Gronbog** · 09-26-2016, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by marriedputter

Splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace?

Flash, I think that the clarification is about whether the dealer is showing a 7 or an Ace. It can't be both. I assume you mean vs Ace and that you're not hole carding.

**Jack Jackson** · 09-27-2016, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Using Hi-Opt II, I count Aces per Quarter-Deck,
but I have very accurate index adjustments for
Surplus / Deficit Aces that improves my P.E.

With most hands the Aces are inconsequential.
With some hands and with Insurance decisions
knowledge of the Aces is helpful.

For all doubling decisions Surplus/Deficit Aces
range between powerful and quasi-crucial.
For splitting 9's vs. 7 against a dealer Ace,
each Ace is counted as TWO (2) Face Cards.

"But wait. There's more."

For your 9-9 vs. a dealer Ace, your ACES are
the equivalent of THREE (3) Face Cards.

Needless to say, Side-Counted Aces RADICALLY
improves Betting Correlation. With Hi-Opt II that
improves from 0.91 to 0.99, making the Ace Side
Count required for (any) non Ace Reckoned Count.

The additional value of Side Counted Aces resides
in your ability to play a more "polite" spread.

I also Side Count 7's in DD games, bringing my P.E.
way up. See The Theory of Blackjack chapter 5 on
"Multiparameter Card Counting Systems" to fully
understand this entire issue.

Do it. Do it now.

Zen,

I appreciate your input, and im well aware about side counting aces and multi-parameters with Ho2 and Ao2...But what i was referring too, was a "less advanced" approach for ace-reckoned counts such as Zen or Revere counts..Do you know or know of any "strategic methods" that could be implemented for ace-reckoned counts to improve 'certain hands' or insurance bets as i mentioned above? The method i described seems like it would work, but im unsure and question the degree of its accuracy or how well it would work, if at all...

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-27-2016, 10:01 AM

The Zen Count is a count that partially reckons Aces, by counting them as -1 while
Face Cards are -2. If the player can be cognizant of the aces viewed (per quarter deck)
this will radically increase BC and improve Pe and IC.

With this step taken, it brings the Zen Count close to Hi-Opt II, with the only downside
being the TAG on the rank of 6 being the same as the 3.

A ZEN Counter should just transition to the Hi-Opt II. Concentrated practice can make
the improvement in a day or three, 'at the outside' Memorizing a new set of indices will
take an hour or two, as the indices are almost the same.

Level One Card Counters can side-count aces, but since I am sufficiently derisive and
disdainful of Level One Counts, (and the unbalanced counts, most of all), I'll not digress.

**seriousplayer** · 09-27-2016, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

With this step taken it brings the Zen Count closer to Hi-Opt II, with the only downside
being the TAG on the rank of 6 being the same as the 3.

What do you mean by the tag on the rank of 6 is the same as the 3

ZEN

A-(-1)
2-(1)
3-(1)
4-(2)
5-(2)
6-(2)
7(1)
8-(0)
9-(0)
T-(-2)

In the unbalanced zen count the tags for the 3 and 6 is the same not the balanced.