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Thread: Side counts and Zen

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    Side counts and Zen

    (Ignoring ace-neutral counts such as HO1 and HO2).

    If only one side count was kept along with a Zen or HiLo count, which would it be?

    I would think Aces, but is it always true?

    With a deficit, black jacks and DDs are more likely.

    With a surfeit, busts are more likely.

    Am I missing anything?

    But what other side counts would be beneficial for Zen? Or any other particular counts?

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    Sevens.

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    A very interesting question. My own philosophies are ever changing on this subject. For myself, I was big for quite a while on 9 side count with halves. Though very effective for its purpose, frequency of occurrence was not sufficient, and I'm not as interested as I used to be.

    Best answer I think would be a combination of ability of individual coupled with what one is trying to achieve. Regardless of decision, answer has to be one that does not affect game speed. I am experimenting (superficially for now) with a couple of thoughts. First, the success rate differential between insurance index for insurance vs insurance 10 count. Second, a general letter count of intermediates - it's effect on variance, especially in higher counts, as well as the potential to further fine tune insurance index. I'm muddling as I'm fumbling with approach.

    Regardless, I hope others participate, at least relatively briefly, on other thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Sevens.
    Excellent briefly, as to your why?

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    Nobody asked for a why. I am just sticking to what is asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Nobody asked for a why. I am just sticking to what is asked.
    Xcellent progress guess m the wordy one this time.

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    I just thought of it but: ace side counts would be important in an H17 game.

    Wouldn't their predicted unlikeliness conduct one to switch for an S17 strategy?

    And, yes, please enlighten us with the reason for the 7SC

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    Counts where the 7 is not a neutral card count it as a weak low card primarily for betting correlation. The decisions you make to hit or stand tend to be on 12, 13 and 14 against 2, 3, or 4 but even 5 and 6. Standing on 13, 14, 15 and 16 against 9. And 15 and 16 against 7 and 8. And 13 and 14 against a T. The 7 is among the most important cards in these matchups. The tag weight is not good for these most common playing deviations. Those most risky weak ass soft double A,3 which always has that really high RA index becomes a strong soft double especially against a 5 or 6.

    Important matchups (for Hiopt2):
    14vT
    13vT
    16v9
    16v7
    15v9
    16v8
    15v7
    15v8
    10vT
    14v2
    13v2
    A3v5
    A3v6
    A2v5
    A2v6
    A2v3
    A4v3
    A5v3
    A6v3
    A7v3
    A4v4
    A5v4
    A6v4
    A7v4

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    Side counting aces is usually for betting. If the count is not ace neutral then there is not much betting gain. Then you are side counting almost exclusively for insurance. Playing side count gains are proportional to the PE of the inside counted count. That makes hilo a poor choice to make side counting for gains in PE. Zen on the other hand has a reasonable starting PE as an ace compromise count. That makes it better suited for side counting for playing hands. Everyone talks about chasing pennies. If you are going to the effort to side count then choose a count that will make it the most worth it. Obviously ace neutral counts are the kings for PE. But you already side count the aces if you use one of them. Not many will want to side count more than one rank. If you are one that would you add the 7 side count to the ace side count with an ace neutral count. Those that only want to side count one rank find Zen to be a perfect count for side counting 7's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    "Those that only want to side count one rank find Zen to be a perfect count for side counting 7's."
    Note: Side Counting Sevens improves Playing Efficiency. It has no influence on bet-sizing.

    I have index adjustments for surplus/deficit Sevens (per quarter deck) for use in "pitch games."


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    ZMF, Bryce Carlson apparently disagrees with your opinion of side counts not having any effect on betting. He specifically recommends that users of his AO2 count sc Aces. Brings BC up from 0.92 to 0.98 or 0.99 IIRC.

    The enhanced BC for AO2 w/ Ace side count is generated through improved awareness of deck/shoe composition (RC impact resulting from sc), and therefore, changed bet sizing vis-a-vis bet sizing without that information.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Galvin View Post
    ZMF, Bryce Carlson apparently disagrees with your opinion of side counts not having any effect on betting. He specifically recommends that users of his AO2 count sc Aces. Brings BC up from 0.92 to 0.98 or 0.99 IIRC.
    AO2 is an ace neutral count. You don't use an ace neutral count without an ace side count. So to me side counting aces is part of using AO2 not an additional side count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    AO2 is an ace neutral count. You don't use an ace neutral count without an ace side count. So to me side counting aces is part of using AO2 not an additional side count.
    Frank, this is more accurate than your response. Any ace neutral count without ace side count is pretty useless. The power comes from, at minimum, he ace side count.

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