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Thread: Ace Bet Count drill question

  1. #1


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    Ace Bet Count drill question

    Hi,

    I'm having a very hard time figuring out how the Ace bet count drill figures out the count. Using Hi-Opt 2, with 1 deck and 1/4 deck resolution. When I do the drill I don't see how it's getting the count it's using. I think if I go through a few hands it'll be easier to illustrate what I mean. I switched it to count down 2 cards at a time and to check the count each time.

    Starting drill count =0
    QA = -4 no problem. RC is -2 with 1 ace deficit so that's another -2. 1 deck remaining
    28 = -2 ??? How is it now -2? Shouldn't it be -3? RC is -1 with 1 ace deficit total of -3. Still 1 deck remaining
    3A = -3? Again, with RC 0 and 2 aces out why isn't BC -4?
    7A = -5? Now RC is +1 with 3 Aces out, if it's using 3/4 decks remaining then their are 2 extra aces out bringing us to -3. If we multiply by 4/3 why isn't the BC now -4?


    I think this gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. I understand the concept of adding/subtracting 2 for each ace surplus/deficit and then multiplying by the inverse of the deck(s) remaining. I just can't figure out why it's getting the numbers for this drill. Any help would be great, thanks.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjoclan View Post
    Starting drill count =0
    QA = -4 no problem. RC is -2 with 1 ace deficit so that's another -2. 1 deck remaining
    28 = -2 ??? How is it now -2? Shouldn't it be -3? RC is -1 with 1 ace deficit total of -3. Still 1 deck remaining
    3A = -3? Again, with RC 0 and 2 aces out why isn't BC -4?
    7A = -5? Now RC is +1 with 3 Aces out, if it's using 3/4 decks remaining then their are 2 extra aces out bringing us to -3. If we multiply by 4/3 why isn't the BC now -4?
    What type of rounding process is it using for TC conversion?

  3. #3


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    In the game settings, True Count division is set to floor and deck estimation is set to round. Is there a separate settings for the drills?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjoclan View Post
    True Count division is set to floor
    -1.00001 TC is floored to TC -2. Aren't all your questionable TC's off by -1 which could indicate they are Flooring where you are not?

  5. #5


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    A bit confused now. When I play the game, I come out spot on with the way the count is being calculated in the tray. Take my second example. So far I've got QA28 out with 4 cards out of the deck. That's still 1 deck remaining (if it's not then why not? 48/52 is closer to 1 than it is to .75) So this should be an easy calculation. RC is -1 with 1 ace deficit bringing it to -3. Why would the computer be using 48/52 as the decks remaining? I just ran a hand using 1 deck in the game and the cards were 3456Q. According to the tray it was a RC of +3 with a TC also of +3 as I would expect. It shows 1 deck remaining. It seems like the drill is calculating this differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjoclan View Post
    I just ran a hand using 1 deck in the game and the cards were 3456Q. According to the tray it was a RC of +3 with a TC also of +3 as I would expect. It shows 1 deck remaining. It seems like the drill is calculating this differently.
    Playing RC +4 (3456Q = 1+2+2+1-2 = +4) with a fractional surplus ace and fractionally less than 1 deck left. How do you get +3? Is there a typo? Both the fractions would add to the TC conversion' magnitude if they affected the procedure so the TC is at least +4 depending on your TC conversion procedures. The procedures should match what was used to generate the bet ramp for betting decisions. Your playing count TC conversion procedures should match what was used in index generation.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Playing RC +4 (3456Q = 1+2+2+1-2 = +4) with a fractional surplus ace and fractionally less than 1 deck left. How do you get +3? Is there a typo? Both the fractions would add to the TC conversion' magnitude if they affected the procedure so the TC is at least +4 depending on your TC conversion procedures. The procedures should match what was used to generate the bet ramp for betting decisions. Your playing count TC conversion procedures should match what was used in index generation.
    Yes, sorry There was a typo. I believe it was 3458Q but I don't know how to recall the hand. I can look at hand history but it doesn't let me play out the hand again now that I've restarted the computer. So, I'm playing another hand right now. I've got T7 vs J. Count is -3 (-2+1-2=-3) It shows -3 on the Tray. I stand, dealer shows J, count is now -5 (-2+1-2-2=-5). Same as on the tray.

    Now, I ran the drill 1 deck 1 card at a time. It matched my count until I get to the 4th card (I ran this a number of times and generally this happens at the 4th or 5th card). Here is one instance: 7,3,7,Q so it should be +1(+1+1+1-2=+1) but it says it's +2. Even if it was fractional, with flooring this should still be +1. What am I doing wrong here?

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    Sorry, the part about flooring still being +1 is wrong.

  9. #9


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    Sorry, the part about it being wrong is wrong. It's been a long morning.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjoclan View Post
    Now, I ran the drill 1 deck 1 card at a time. It matched my count until I get to the 4th card (I ran this a number of times and generally this happens at the 4th or 5th card). Here is one instance: 7,3,7,Q so it should be +1(+1+1+1-2=+1) but it says it's +2. Even if it was fractional, with flooring this should still be +1. What am I doing wrong here?
    Does the "tray" show the RC for betting, RC for Playing or ace adjusted counter betting?

    If the procedure that generated your indices and bet ramp use your same method you are doing nothing wrong. I am speculating for SD play tries to get +1 or -1 increments for surplus or deficit aces for betting and is adjusting by 1 for no aces removed at the 4th card since 4 is closer to 6.5 than 0 and 6.5 is the half an ace or 1 point adjustment point. If I am right it adjusts accordingly with each 1/2 ace expected being 1 point adjustment:
    0 to 3.25 cards no aces expected.
    3.25 to 9.75 cards 1/2 an ace expected.
    9.75 to 16.25 cards 1 ace expected.
    16.25 to 22.75 1.5 aces expected.
    22.75 to 29.25 2 aces expected.
    etc.

    Now this is just a guess. I don't know how the software was instructed to do things but I think it fixes your issue. Whether you should do that or not depends on what your bet ramp used when it was generated.

  11. #11


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    I'm trying to adopt Hi-Opt II for DD games and using Casino Verite to practice. The deck estimation/ace adjustment is driving me nuts. Just when I think I have the deck estimate and ace surplus/deficit nailed, it turns out I'm wrong. As Tthree notes, I think it has to with the flooring and rounding settings.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Does the "tray" show the RC for betting, RC for Playing or ace adjusted counter betting?

    If the procedure that generated your indices and bet ramp use your same method you are doing nothing wrong. I am speculating for SD play tries to get +1 or -1 increments for surplus or deficit aces for betting and is adjusting by 1 for no aces removed at the 4th card since 4 is closer to 6.5 than 0 and 6.5 is the half an ace or 1 point adjustment point. If I am right it adjusts accordingly with each 1/2 ace expected being 1 point adjustment:
    0 to 3.25 cards no aces expected.
    3.25 to 9.75 cards 1/2 an ace expected.
    9.75 to 16.25 cards 1 ace expected.
    16.25 to 22.75 1.5 aces expected.
    22.75 to 29.25 2 aces expected.
    etc.

    Now this is just a guess. I don't know how the software was instructed to do things but I think it fixes your issue. Whether you should do that or not depends on what your bet ramp used when it was generated.
    The "tray" I'm talking about is the tray menu at the bottom of the game. It says Tray Errors Bankroll Shoe. It lists Remaining Decks, RC, TC, Ace Count, Betting Count and then other counts I don't use.

    To be clear, I just switched to SD for the drill and the game to illustrate the issue I'm having (I have the same discrepancy when I set both to DD). I have no issues in game with the count, just the drill and I don't know how to fix it. I definitely do not want to be accounting for 1/2 aces.

  13. #13


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    I think I may have figured out what's going on in this drill. When I set the options for the drill to resolution of 1 card it changes how the program calculates the count (It no longer calculates it by quarter deck regardless of how I've got my settings set up in the game). I switched it to 16 cards +-8 cards and it calculates it correctly. The problem I have, is that I'd like it to test me at quicker intervals but it will be calculating it at the interval that I chose (normally 8 cards +- %50).

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