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Thread: Hit 17 Deviations Simple Question

  1. #1


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    Hit 17 Deviations Simple Question

    hey all, I'm still very much a beginner, so please excuse me if this is a stupid question, I just can't find the answer anywhere.

    On Blackjack Apprentice, they give you the deviations charts and have numbers at which you deviate from basic strategy. The chart is here https://www.blackjackapprenticeship....ck-deviations/

    I get that, but how do I know if the numbers mean to deviate at the count and higher, or deviate at the count and lower? For instance, the software tells me when the dealer is showing a 9 and you have a 16, you surrender on a true count of -1 or higher, and then there are other times it's -1 or lower.

    I can count a deck in 25 seconds and have basic strategy memorized back and forth, so I'm wanting to move forward with this but don't want to memorize things the wrong way.

    Thank you guys!

  2. #2
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    I can't see your strategy chart at the link. Most indices you deviate at the TC or higher. Ones that don't are reverse indices and the chart should make those few exceptions clear in some way.

  3. #3


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    Screen Shot 2016-08-01 at 7.11.05 PM.jpg

    Let me know if that works. There seems to be only indication when it says 0.

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    In the instructions it tells you that if the "-" comes after the 0 it is a reverse index (you deviate at or below the index). I don't know what count you are using but 15vT as a reverse surrender index just looks wrong. How could there even be a reverse surrender index?
    Last edited by Three; 08-01-2016 at 08:35 PM.

  5. #5


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    Instead of thinking of index numbers as telling you when to deviate from BS (I NEVER think of them that way!), just remember a single rule:
    If the TC > or = the index, then stand, double, split, surrender, or insure. This works for every index in your chart.

    There is such a (rare) thing as a reverse index, where the above doesn't hold (splitting 8,8 vs. 10, for example), but that's just about the only one you'd have to worry about.

    Don

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    Thank you guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blues guy View Post
    Screen Shot 2016-08-01 at 7.11.05 PM.jpg


    Let me know if that works. There seems to be only indication when it says 0.
    T3 ...
    Control-click on the image and select download image.
    Look in your Downloads Folder. Sort by date.

    An image such as this'll open by default in "Preview"
    where there are "tools" to alter the size, print, etc. etc.

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    "I don't know what count you are using but 15vT as a reverse surrender index just looks wrong. How could there even be a reverse surrender index?"

    Basic strategy for 15 v. 10 is to surrender. The index is zero. So, 0- means that, below zero, you deviate from BS (which is to surrender), and you hit instead. It's the same reason that 12 v. 4 says 0-. BS is to stand. You deviate from BS, and hit, if the TC is below zero.

    Clear?

    Don

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    Thanks Don. Now it makes sense. I choose to represent my indices differently thus the confusion. I would have a H/RS index where you surrender if at the index or above. It is less confusing and can be processed ever so slightly faster in my brain.

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    "I would have a H/RS index where you surrender if at the index or above."

    But zero or above IS the index at which you surrender! The confusion is with the fact that this is not a departure from BS, but rather IS BS. BS is to surrender, and you surrender if > or = to the index. Same exact thing for 12 v. 4. People erroneously express indices as counts at which you make a departure if the number is equaled or exceeded. That simply isn't true, or at least it isn't true all the time.

    Don

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    But zero or above IS the index at which you surrender! The confusion is with the fact that this is not a departure from BS, but rather IS BS. BS is to surrender, and you surrender if > or = to the index. Same exact thing for 12 v. 4. People erroneously express indices as counts at which you make a departure if the number is equaled or exceeded. That simply isn't true, or at least it isn't true all the time.

    Don
    People doing their own research have their own preferred way to express the results that work best in their head. After using indices enough BS becomes more of a memory task than index plays. I like consistent H/S, H/D, S/D etc decisions where you do the left decision below the index and at or above the index you you use the right decision. A friend expresses things the way it makes it easiest for him which is very complicated for me. He expressed each decisions as a series of greater than and less than relationships. Well I guess in BJ things don't get very complicated but in BJ variants you might have a matchup with an index for a 2 card hand, special matchup mixed, suited, and spaded indices and indices for 4, 5 and 6+ card hands and if you really want to be thorough 3 card hands indices. So 1 matchup may have as many as 8 different indices. Depending on your count some matchups may have a triple index where you hit, stand and double at various ranges of the TC with the same number of cards. Then you have triple for 3 card hands that are all different from the 2 card hands. Most people cut their EV in half or worse by not being thorough enough and just use global adjustments to the 2 card hand index. That is the biggest mistake you can make. Anyway to memorize such a complex set of indices for each matchup you need a good way to make it easy to remember for you. Everyone is different as to what will make it easy to remember. Whenever I get a set of indices I convert it to what is easiest for me. That is what I described above.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    " ... in BJ variants you might have a matchup with an index for a 2 card hand, special matchup mixed, suited, and spaded indices and indices for 4, 5 and 6+ card hands and if you really want to be thorough 3 card hands indices. So 1 matchup may have as many as 8 different indices. Depending on your count some matchups may have a triple index where you hit, stand and double at various ranges of the TC with the same number of cards. Then you have triple for 3 card hands that are all different from the 2 card hands. Most people cut their EV in half or worse by not being thorough enough and just use global adjustments to the 2 card hand index. That is the biggest mistake you can make."
    Re-reading the above salient post #11 from T3 suggests that if one is unable to memorize a truly extensive compendium of indices in Spanish21 (and use Level 2 and 3 counts, than it is folly to play the game at all. I concur 100%! Here is a footnote that may further suggest the complexity involved:

    In Spanish21 the worst possible hand matchup is a Hard 17 vs. a dealer Ace, (not 16 vs 10).
    It is so bad that it is the sole Basic Strategy SURRENDER.
    But wait. There's more. Looking at that hand ~ you may also hit or stand and those choices, of course, are True Count dependent; but wait ... What if you have a multi-card 17 ? Those indices are further adjusted for 3 card, 4 card and 5 card, and 6 card; but wait, if your hard 17 is a result of a doubled hand [Think doubling 11 vs. Ace at a high True Count] and getting pasted with a 6. You then are given the option of "rescuing" your hand. Spanish21 jargon for surrendering an already doubled hand.

    Let us not forget that our initial 2 card (common stiff) hand is often eligible for five card, six card, and seven card bonus payoffs. This means that those bonus eligible hands are subject to Index Adjustments depending on number of cards and suit [!] as well. Ever think about hitting a 5 card 17 against a dealer 10 ? Hmmm.

    The point of this mini-disquisition (un intentional oxymoron) is to dissuade anyone from imagining that they are capable of playing a game that is so amazingly complex, IF they think that memorizing and employing 75 indices in BJ is overwhelming.

    After all, blackjack is a simple game. Not so for Spanish21.


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