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Thread: Level 2 count system

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Oh thanks Norm. Now we get another dissertation on the useful button. I'm kidding.
    Pretty useless actually. Last couple of weeks or so, I've had 75-80 votes, 60 to 65 as negative non helpful. Only 4 today. Appears I have some fans. If the system is to have any validity, it needs to be monitored.

    To clean it up, better bring in the Hansen brothers.
    https://youtu.be/wd_vefMKk4o
    Last edited by Freightman; 07-29-2016 at 09:28 PM.

  2. #15
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Going back is difficult. I need to know quickly. I have spent some time looking, and have not seen one person hitting you.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  3. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Going back is difficult. I need to know quickly. I have spent some time looking, and have not seen one person hitting you.
    Interestingly enough, the individual(s) don't necessarily hit the most recent posts, preferring to wait a day or so. What I can say is this - The approx breakdown 2-3 weeks ago was 80-40. It climbed steadily, to the number presently on profile.

    For what it's worth, my you tube links usually take the hit. Some people simply have no sense of humor.

    I wouldn't worry about it - what's done is done. The salient point is that it has been done elsewhere, and that the system is flawed. Now, what's more important, did you check out he Hansen brothers you tube link

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post

    " ... my you tube links usually take the hit. Some people simply have no sense of humor."
    Not so simple. Many people prefer their humor unadulterated,
    and their "educational" forums to be just that. I feel similarly
    about political screeds and superstitious rants.

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Interestingly enough, the individual(s) don't necessarily hit the most recent posts, preferring to wait a day or so. What I can say is this - The approx breakdown 2-3 weeks ago was 80-40. It climbed steadily, to the number presently on profile.

    For what it's worth, my you tube links usually take the hit. Some people simply have no sense of humor.

    I wouldn't worry about it - what's done is done. The salient point is that it has been done elsewhere, and that the system is flawed. Now, what's more important, did you check out he Hansen brothers you tube link
    Don't you think that maybe you are a little to sensitive or insecure? Who cares it's the internet. You will never meet anyone here. You are just showing your insecurity in life by complaining about the rating system.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye of the Eagle View Post
    Don't you think that maybe you are a little to sensitive or insecure? Who cares it's the internet. You will never meet anyone here. You are just showing your insecurity in life by complaining about the rating system.
    Nope, not the point

  7. #20
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    We are playing a game. But, if anyone has ever participated in athletics, they know humor is a vital part to relax or loosen up to compete at full tilt. Nontheless, I will revert to being a serious fucker until further notice.
    Or fuck"her" serious............
    Combine game and education all in one swoop Moses
    Last edited by MJGolf; 08-02-2016 at 04:33 PM.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #21
    Senior Member bigplayer's Avatar
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    All depends on your personal utility and what games you typically play. Back when there were still lots of single deck games learning a 2 level count or even a 2 level count with a sidecount of Aces was a no brainer. Your win rate was 20% to 25% higher than it would be just using High-Low. For shoes the difference isn't that stark, it's more like 5% to 7% and if it's a shoe game with a poor cut there may be no difference at all in your win rate. I used to use AO2 for double deck and single deck and use Zen for shoes using the AO2 indexes for everything, now I just use Zen for everything. Earlier in my career I used a similar approach using Hi-Opt 1 for pitch games and High-Low for shoes....all using the same indexes. I'll admit, I'm no dummy but keeping an Ace Sidecount in shoe games is just a pain in the ass and has very little use IMHO. For pitch games the Ace side count has all sorts of extra benefits particularly in deciding to double your 8, 9, 10, or 11 or A7, A8, A9.

  9. #22


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    As always solid practical advice from BP.

  10. #23
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    In BJ most of these issues have modest gains in todays game. Some want as much EV and certainty as they can as the game continually deteriorates. Others don't. BJ variants often benefit unbelievably from getting fancy with your counting skills. Of course you have to develop them before you can get fancy with them. One should anticipate graduating to a BJ variant at some point. You should learn the advanced counting skills and become proficient at them. How you feel about using them in BJ is up to you. Like I said the gains are modest in a monetary sense but the percentage gain increases as the games continue to deteriorate. The effect on RoR and SCORE etc is significant due to the increasing percentage gain. It all depends on what is important to you.

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    The effect on RoR and SCORE etc is significant due to the increasing percentage gain. It all depends on what is important to you.
    ,that is 1 fine point for bankroll growth. Of the advices i take for tthree ,this is a fine one that help me quadruple my bank in 1 year ,of course other factors were involved.

  12. #25
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    All depends on your personal utility and what games you typically play. Back when there were still lots of single deck games learning a 2 level count or even a 2 level count with a sidecount of Aces was a no brainer. Your win rate was 20% to 25% higher than it would be just using High-Low. For shoes the difference isn't that stark, it's more like 5% to 7% and if it's a shoe game with a poor cut there may be no difference at all in your win rate. ..... now I just use Zen for everything. I'll admit, I'm no dummy but keeping an Ace Sidecount in shoe games is just a pain in the ass and has very little use IMHO. For pitch games the Ace side count has all sorts of extra benefits particularly in deciding to double your 8, 9, 10, or 11 or A7, A8, A9.
    So BigPlayer..........along these lines, do you think DD is closer to the single deck game now v. the olden golden days? Would you opine that this level 2 count (Zen or HiOptII with an ASC) would be worth it since DD games are about the best you can find these days? Would the percentage gain you mention be worth it in today's games/world?

    I've been using SCORE more for my determination of the better games to play here in our jurisdiction. Maybe this is an unrelated question to the original post BUT which factor is the most significant in your analysis of games? Open question to any who have an opinion. Perhaps that's TOO simplistic a question. But I guess I'm just trying to rotate or vary between shoe games and pitch games (which really are only DD that are playable) and wondering if limiting myself to one single level count is counterproductive.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  13. #26


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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    Open question to any who have an opinion. Perhaps that's TOO simplistic a question. But I guess I'm just trying to rotate or vary between shoe games and pitch games (which really are only DD that are playable) and wondering if limiting myself to one single level count is counterproductive.
    MJ - Knowing you're a KO guy, check out the power of TKO for all your games. In DD, use TKO with quarter deck estimation, top 70 indexes (generated by CVData) and an Ace side count. The best system in the world (Hi-Opt II with full indexes and Ace side count) may beat it by 10 - 15%. But then you move on seamlessly to the multi-deck shoe game and will tear it up with TKO. No system has more than a very slight advantage over TKO (with top 70 indexes) in a 6 or 8 deck game.

    I rest my case. Bring it on you count freaks..!!!

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