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Thread: DD on Soft 21

  1. #1


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    DD on Soft 21

    I had the following situation come up this weekend. At very end of the shoe with a great count (TC of 12 with Zen) playing 2x$150, Iget 19 on first hand and 20 on second. Dealer has 6 showing. I split the 20 and get a face on first. Stay on that hand and get an A on second for 21. I tried to double on the "soft 11" but pit boss said I could not since it was "blackjack" and against casino control. I let it go and won all three hands and left.

    State casino controls for this casino state the following:
    • Except for when a player has a "Blackjack", a player may elect to make a Double Down Wager,which may not exceed the amount of his original wager on the first two cards dealt to him or the first two cards ofany split pair except aces, on the condition that one and only one additional card shall be dealt to the hand on whichthe player has elected to double down.
    • Definition of "Blackjack" - means an ace and any card having a point value of 10 dealt as the initial two cards to aplayer or a dealer. Blackjack pays 3 to 2 or 6 to 5.


    My contention was that my hand cannot be considered a "Blackjack" if I do not get paid 3:2. it cannot be one without the other. Therefore, using the rules of doubling down, "I" can treat my hand as soft 11 and double down. I knew they wouldn't let me but I thought I would test the pit boss out.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2


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    You are correct - it was not a blackjack. However, some stores have rules on that scenario which would prevent you from making the double. Not sure what the hi LO halves equivalent I'd to zen plus 12, so I won't comment further.

  3. #3


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    They have no posted rules about this scenario and I don't expect them to, but they always state "it's in the casino controls". Well it is and it isn't!

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    They have no posted rules about this scenario and I don't expect them to, but they always state "it's in the casino controls". Well it is and it isn't!
    Depending on where you are, they may have government legislation pertaining to this. If you cannot find the statues, call your state gaming commission and ask them.

  5. #5


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    What I referenced is the state gaming regulation for this casino. I might give them a call for clarification.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I tried to double on the "soft 11" but pit boss said I could not since it was "blackjack" and against casino control. I let it go and won all three hands and left.
    I would have accepted his offer to pay 3:2 on the split hand and smiled. If he didn't pay 3:2 as the law requires on BJ then he is telling you it isn't a BJ.

    I am not sure a RA index exists for this play. You can't lose the hand so doubling, even if it is plus EV, would seem unwise to me.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I would have accepted his offer to pay 3:2 on the split hand and smiled. If he didn't pay 3:2 as the law requires on BJ then he is telling you it isn't a BJ.

    I am not sure a RA index exists for this play. You can't lose the hand so doubling, even if it is plus EV, would seem unwise to me.
    Agreed, count would need to be a monster in an ace depleted deck - even then, some plays just aren't worth it, depending on factors.

  8. #8


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    A couple of questions and comments: 1) When you got a face on the split ten, why didn't you split again? 2) You are surely correct about having had the right to double. You absolutely did. 3) There is an index (Hi-Lo) for doubling A,10 vs. 6, on a split hand; it's +8. If Zen TC = +12 = a Hi-Lo +6, as I suspect it does, you didn't have enough to double.

    Don

  9. #9


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    Good question Don. Yes I should have split again but I don't like being that aggressive with splitting faces. It's enough attention splitting them once. I didn't know the index was 12 for doubling. Guess the pit boss saved me! Haha

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    "If Zen TC = +12 = a Hi-Lo +6, as I suspect it does, you didn't have enough to double."
    I believe that it is correct to make a Zen T.C. of +12 EQUAL to a Hi-Lo T.C. of +8

    A problem with Zen is that it is including deficit ACES in the positive T.C.,

    thus reducing the validity of the enhanced power inherent in a +12 T.C.

    Because of this diluting factor, I teach my ZEN players to treat doubling an 11

    (vs. anything) as a "Risk Averse" situation, and suggest that +2 be added to the index.

    If the matchup in question was a doubling of a 10 or a 9 this would be a moot point.

    Not so vs. the dealer ACE.

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