New Countermeasure Found

**Stealth** · 07-04-2016, 01:06 PM

Occasionally I venture out to one of the local stores (Vegas) and slip under the radar to play some double deck. Having been backed off at most of them, I am there to play with a "polite" ramp (2X25 - 2X150) for less than an hour and to make dinner money, if possible. The local store is on the low end of the joints and offers a $10 double deck game with 20-25 cards cut off by this dealer (her choice). I am there with a partner and we are using co-ordinated betting to "get more money down". But even so, we must "tone it down" somewhat due to our environment so he is playing with the same multiples but a $10 unit.

Action starts and soon the count goes positive and my partner is first to act and raises his bet to $50 (5 times his previous bet) and the dealer counted his bet and removed ten dollars , leaving a $40 bet, and said, "you can only raise your bet four times your previous bet".

Needless to say this caught my attention before I was to place my bet and I asked why this was required and she responded that they get a lot of card counters and this was to prevent them from making big bets. So, I asked for clarification that I could raise my bet four times my previous bet and she confirmed that to be true.

Now, unless I am missing something she took away my ability to make large jumps but gave me an ability, that they are comfortable with, to "parlay" up to damn near any number I want. So betting a hand of 25 followed by one of 100 and then one of 400 would be legal. Dumbest damn counter measure I ever heard. At any rate, couldn't close any of the big bets, so after pushing 3 times a t 2X100 my time ran out (one hour) and I left. But I will give them another chance soon.

Certainly, flat betting whatever I start with and other controls are known to me but I have not heard of this 4X thingy. I think it is close to a circular firing squad.

Others?

**Banker** · 07-04-2016, 01:23 PM

I have heard about it but not from bet to bet. It is usually related to the first bet you make. So, you start the shoe with $10 and then you cannot bet more than $40. This was on a single deck though. It is actually an interesting method to give dealers local control over the game rather than wait for the pit boss and surveillance. It obviously reflects extreme paranoia. It should be taken as an extra measure and do not expect that it would replace other measures. So, I do not think it would mean you bet $100 and then $400. In a store like that, someone will jump down from the ceiling if that happens.

**Jabberwocky** · 07-04-2016, 01:32 PM

Outdone. I know of a store that requires pit permission to double your next bet in DD with .50 pen. How's that for paranoia?

**Freightman** · 07-04-2016, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Outdone. I know of a store that requires pit permission to double your next bet in DD with .50 pen. How's that for paranoia?

Golly Gee Whiz - does that affect hands per hour?

**Stealth** · 07-04-2016, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Banker

In a store like that, someone will jump down from the ceiling if that happens.

Oh, I am sooooooo aware of that. My number of back offs is way over 20 in Vegas (we should do a survey on this stat!!), so there are no rose colored glasses here. I only used the $400 bet as an example of their policy. However, I do believe their policy provides a false sense of security that I can attack in short sessions and at "polite" ramps.

And I will.

**NotEnoughHeat** · 07-04-2016, 02:54 PM

My local shops have a 4x rule where if you increase your bet more than that it triggers a shuffle (only for double deck). I'm not sure if they would allow you to 4x one bet after another since I don't play the double deck at all. However, from what I can tell, they're very shoddy when it comes to enforcing their countermeasures. I heard stories of why one long time counter stopped playing at this one place and apparently the issue was NMSE. However, I've definitely wonged in a few times before.

**bigplayer** · 07-05-2016, 04:23 AM

Bet jumps I make without question. 2x25 to 2x100, 2x50 to 2x150, 2x100 to 2x300, 2x150 to 2x400, 2x200 to 2x500, 2x300 to 2x700, etc. Most of these bet jumps raise very little issues. I'd never go from say 2x$50 straight to 2x$200 or higher, it just doesn't look right, unless it's the last round and I'm heading out.

**davethebuilder** · 07-05-2016, 05:43 AM

Not Enough Heat - it is called the Reno Shuffle and occurs when a player increases their bet by a certain amount or a certain multiple. Card counters can take advantage of this by deliberately raising their bets in negative situations in order to force a shuffle.

**Banker** · 07-05-2016, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Stealth

Oh, I am sooooooo aware of that. My number of back offs is way over 20 in Vegas (we should do a survey on this stat!!), so there are no rose colored glasses here. I only used the $400 bet as an example of their policy. However, I do believe their policy provides a false sense of security that I can attack in short sessions and at "polite" ramps.

And I will.

I knew you were aware of these issues. My post was more for general audience.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 07-05-2016, 07:59 AM

My hard & Fast rules:

NEVER increase a bet by >100%
NEVER decrease a bet by > 50%

**Norm** · 07-05-2016, 08:10 AM

Too hard and fast for me.

**Stealth** · 07-05-2016, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

NEVER increase a bet by >100%
NEVER decrease a bet by > 50%

While reasonable, as a lone wolf I prefer guidelines to rules in this case. Very into adopting to casino tolerances on an ad hoc basis.

In team environments, rules are more required as all team members do not possess the same level of judgement.

We all have experienced the sweaty pit for small wagers and the completely oblivious pit for purple chips. It just depends!

I will expand and say this area of AP play is likely the most critical to maintaining your longevity while not giving away your EV. Too often we are slave to RoR and maximizing EV when developing bet structures that serve these two masters will go a long way to improve your chances of success.