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Thread: Hi Opt II vs DMPro

  1. #1


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    Hi Opt II vs DMPro

    Hello,
    I've been counting for a little over half a year with a smallish bankroll. I play shoe games in MD. (College student grinding by for tuition)
    I've been using Hi-Lo and was looking to graduate to a more effective system. I am not too worried about system difficulty or hours put in to learn a system. (I love the grind) Looking on the wizard of odds website I bought the book, Dynamic Blackjack by Maverick Sharp. I read the forum post review on this book and it seemed this count did not really interest any of the vets here. I get that your choice of counting system is totally preference, but I'm wondering if since I already bought the book, should I invest my time into learning the DMPro Count or perhaps the suggested Hi-Opt II w/ ASC I often see in the forums.

    TLDR: DMPro. Is it worth learning? Or just go with Hi-Opt II ASC. (The stats seem decent on DMPro)

    -Ted
    Last edited by Tstedstevens; 07-02-2016 at 08:14 AM. Reason: 1 more line

  2. #2


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    For those interested, check out the following thread here on bjtf:

    https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...arp#post116410
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

  3. #3


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    More specific question is whether Hi Opt II ASC would be effective at 6 or 8 deck games.
    Perfect time for me to post as Don just went on vacation :P


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    "Some people veer down a*cul-de-sac*of "stronger counts" and even worse - "side counts." I have already written about my feelings for stronger counts here - Advice to new card counters, but going after a side count of 7s or some other side count is nothing more than mental masturbation. There is nothing wrong with mental masturbation ; I do the*occasional*Sudoku*or computer solitaire, especially when I'm trying to avoid writing. But don't fool yourself into thinking that this is the road to where the money is hidden. When Atlantic City opened in the late 70s it birthed a new generation of card counters. There was one set that everyone ran into called "the multiparameter jerkoffs." They would stand behind a table looking like they had a serious physical disability. The left foot pointed one direction, the right pointed 210 degrees away, the left hand tapping their stomach as if scratching fleas, while the right hand fidgeted on the back of their neck. They would bend your ear telling you how they were the greatest card counters in the world because they were using the Hi Opt2, counting aces on the left foot, 7s on the right foot,*deuces*on the left hand and 8s on the right. Then when the count was right they would spring onto the table with their max bet... of $50. I did describe Peter Griffin, author of*The Theory of Blackjack, playing in this manner here, but that was 30+ years ago when single decks games were still*readily*available. I do not know any*full-time professional advantage player*that makes his*living*in this manner. None. Zero. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it just means I don't know them. (And I believe I know more professional APs than most people writing on the internet.) Remember, masturbation will make you go blind, so stop this once you need glasses."

    RWM.

    http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2013/...equencing.html
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  5. #5
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Gramazeka View Post
    "Some people veer down a*cul-de-sac*of "stronger counts" and even worse - "side counts." I have already written about my feelings for stronger counts here - Advice to new card counters, but going after a side count of 7s or some other side count is nothing more than mental masturbation. There is nothing wrong with mental masturbation ; I do the*occasional*Sudoku*or computer solitaire, especially when I'm trying to avoid writing. But don't fool yourself into thinking that this is the road to where the money is hidden. When Atlantic City opened in the late 70s it birthed a new generation of card counters. There was one set that everyone ran into called "the multiparameter jerkoffs." They would stand behind a table looking like they had a serious physical disability. The left foot pointed one direction, the right pointed 210 degrees away, the left hand tapping their stomach as if scratching fleas, while the right hand fidgeted on the back of their neck. They would bend your ear telling you how they were the greatest card counters in the world because they were using the Hi Opt2, counting aces on the left foot, 7s on the right foot,*deuces*on the left hand and 8s on the right. Then when the count was right they would spring onto the table with their max bet... of $50. I did describe Peter Griffin, author of*The Theory of Blackjack, playing in this manner here, but that was 30+ years ago when single decks games were still*readily*available. I do not know any*full-time professional advantage player*that makes his*living*in this manner. None. Zero. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it just means I don't know them. (And I believe I know more professional APs than most people writing on the internet.) Remember, masturbation will make you go blind, so stop this once you need glasses."

    RWM.

    http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2013/...equencing.html
    I've never trusted cliche artists.

  6. #6


    2 out of 6 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    HiLo is all you need if you're playing shoe games. The reasons you are asking these questions is cause you have yet to play enough hours in the casino with multiple counts and find out for yourself. You also don't understand that game that well and haven't been able to think critically about what it really means to switch count. At the end of the day they all compare small cards to high cards. And just because one count has tags of 2 and one count has tags of 1, its still virtually the same thing. Like take a system that counts everything as +2 and tens and aces -2, do you realize that system is the very same system as one which counts everything as +1 and tens and aces -1? You get my point? Of course these level 2 and level 3 systems have a couple different tags, which theoretically gets you more money, but in the real world it doesn't make one iota of a difference due to things which are out of your control, which I will get to below.

    Take it from me, I've been down your road before. In the real world playing shoe games, stick to hilo. Hilo gets the money, is the most simple count out there and even when simmed vs higher level counts performs very competitively. Every other count out there is not worth any effort whatsoever. The ones who claim it does, are people trying to make you buy their books or some other hidden agenda to benefit them. All these side counts simply can't be executed perfectly like a simulator, and even if you did execute it perfectly, it wont make a difference one bit by the time you finish your career. Can you estimate to the exact card with multiple decks in the discard tray? Of course simulation software is capable of adjusting for human error to give you a more real world expected EV, but nonetheless it's still the same, all of it is irrelevant. There's just so many things these sim guys overlook, such as human shuffling vs simulation shuffling and that human shuffling will leave many more clumps, etc. All level 2, level 3, and level 4 counts and so on are are obsolete for SHOE games. If you start playing highly dealt pitch games, DIFFERENT story, and you should side count as much as your heart desires.

    My advice to you is stick with hilo and learn every single index from -1 to as high as possible, count down multiple shoes simultaneously, and play the best games possible(no full tables, deep penetration, S17, 3:2 blackjack etc.) That my friend is what will get you the money in today's shoe games. I suggest you never get caught up in this again, because if you do, you're simply wasting your time.
    Last edited by LoneWoLF; 07-02-2016 at 04:53 PM.

  7. #7
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Sorry, but you really should stop lecturing people. You are starting to sound like Jerry Patterson with all this clumping nonsense.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Sorry, but you really should stop lecturing people. You are starting to sound like Jerry Patterson with all this clumping nonsense.
    Arnold Snyder and Richard Epstein agree with me

  9. #9
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    I have known Arnold for 23 years and have worked closely with him. I have worked closely with Richard, and am one of the three people in the acknowledgements of the second edition of his book. No, they do not agree with you.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    I have known Arnold for 23 years and have worked closely with him. I have worked closely with Richard, and am one of the three people in the acknowledgements of the second edition of his book. No, they do not agree with you.
    http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...t/manvscom.htm

  11. #11
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    This three decade old study concluded that there were no significant differences between simulated dealer shuffling and random shuffling. That's exactly what I have been saying. Studies by respected folk show that casino shuffles do not significantly differ from random shuffling. Studies done by some scammers say otherwise. In any case, CVData allows real casino shuffles in far more detail than in this study. But, they give the same results -- just one hell of a lot slower. The main reason that I included real shuffle capability is for shuffle-tracking sims. Obviously, this is completely different.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  12. #12


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    Look, if you are interested in other advantage play than counting then machine vs hand shuffle is INCREDIBLY important. More people cause more problems, whether you understand the shuffle or not. There were many good points made here and they all applied to actual conditions...

    I don't really understand where you some off with one-liner dismissals. Clumping is what allows ST to to be a thing...

  13. #13
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Random shuffles "clump" as much as real casino shuffles. "Clumping" is a natural result of randomness. A lack of "clumps" would be the antithesis of randomness. But, we tend to avoid the term now because of the scam systems, like T.A.R.G.E.T., that constantly refer to "clumping" in a ridiculous manner.

    ST is quite a different matter because with ST you can identify clumps and take advantage of them.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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