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Thread: Ohio Gamimg Law - Theory and Practice

  1. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I found it in one second:

    Title 11—DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY Division 45—Missouri Gaming Commission
    Chapter 5—Conduct of Gaming
    11 CSR 45-5.010 Presumption of the Right of Patrons to Participate in Gambling Games
    PURPOSE: This rule establishes the general right of a patron to participate in gambling games unless such patron engages in unlaw- ful or disruptive conduct.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by sections 313.800, RSMo et seq., as amended from time-to-time, and 11 CSR 45-1 et seq., as amended from time-to-time (collectively, the “Riverboat Gambling Act and Regulations”), no licensee may deny a patron the right to play a table game that involves playing cards and which is offered to the general public. A patron may be denied such right if the patron engages in unlawful or disruptive conduct. The licensee shall notify a commission agent prior to removing such patron.
    Thanks T -

    The Ohio law unfortunately doesn't spell it out so clearly, but the regulations (in my OP) appear to indicate the same general intent...

  2. #32


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    I believe the foundation for trespass actions is property law. If I own a vacant lot and you come on that property, then I have the right to trespass you. It is not about what actions you did, but your very presence on my property. I am not required to have cause. The casinos maintain this fundamental right with their ownership.

    Being backed off or having other countermeasures applied are a different issue.
    I agree. New Jersey is the only state that both addressed the issue and decided it against the casino...but they still gave leave for the commission to promulgate a rule to bar counters.

  3. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    They can 86 you for misconduct but not going in and legally playing their game using your mind. That is perfectly reasonable and easy to understand. They are licensed by the state to offer games the state feels are games of skill and can't bar people simply because they play it legally as a game of skill. The countermeasures are 100% effective and there is no need for anything else.
    Based on what law? You could say that about any other jurisdiction as an idealistic idea, but it simply isn't true in reality. Games of skill, by law, aren't gambling--that's the only legal issue there. Look at the whole fantasy sports debate. Blackjack is a game of chance. Whether it's a game of a skill or chance in Missouri doesn't matter, because we already know it's gambling.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boz View Post
    Based on what law?
    Title 11—DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY Division 45—Missouri Gaming Commission
    Chapter 5—Conduct of Gaming
    11 CSR 45-5.010 Presumption of the Right of Patrons to Participate in Gambling Games
    PURPOSE: This rule establishes the general right of a patron to participate in gambling games unless such patron engages in unlaw- ful or disruptive conduct.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by sections 313.800, RSMo et seq., as amended from time-to-time, and 11 CSR 45-1 et seq., as amended from time-to-time (collectively, the “Riverboat Gambling Act and Regulations”), no licensee may deny a patron the right to play a table game that involves playing cards and which is offered to the general public. A patron may be denied such right if the patron engages in unlawful or disruptive conduct. The licensee shall notify a commission agent prior to removing such patron.

  5. #35
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    Notice that the issue is dealt with very specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    no licensee may deny a patron the right to play a table game that involves playing cards and which is offered to the general public.
    Last time I checked BJ is played with playing cards.

  6. #36


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Title 11—DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY Division 45—Missouri Gaming Commission
    Chapter 5—Conduct of Gaming
    11 CSR 45-5.010 Presumption of the Right of Patrons to Participate in Gambling Games
    PURPOSE: This rule establishes the general right of a patron to participate in gambling games unless such patron engages in unlaw- ful or disruptive conduct.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by sections 313.800, RSMo et seq., as amended from time-to-time, and 11 CSR 45-1 et seq., as amended from time-to-time (collectively, the “Riverboat Gambling Act and Regulations”), no licensee may deny a patron the right to play a table game that involves playing cards and which is offered to the general public. A patron may be denied such right if the patron engages in unlawful or disruptive conduct. The licensee shall notify a commission agent prior to removing such patron.
    Well, I found the part where it says blackjack is a defined as a game of skill under the Missouri gaming regulations. It must matter for something, but I couldn't find any reason why this matters for anything.

    Unfortunately, your second argument is less than compelling. Disruptive is hardly well-defined. Counting cards may be disruptive. Countermeasures, specifically authorized, is certainly disruptive. What's the root cause of this disruptive conduct? The countermeasures themselves, or the card counting that prompted them? Further, the "et seq." indicates that the rule does not apply in instances where the rules otherwise authorize departure from the PRESUMPTION (this 'right' is merely a rebuttable presumption--in other words, it's a revocable privilege.). Pertinent is the regulation I already cited in the Policies section. So, this doesn't work for me. I think they are just doing what most casinos, including Indian casinos, already do.

  7. #37


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    Ohio Gamimg Law - Theory and Practice

    Hey Boz, I have an idea.

    Since you don't want to believe what we're saying, and since you want to argue with the statue, maybe try this experiment:

    Walk into a Missouri casino. Sit at a Blackjack table. Count the cards, out loud. Do your TC conversions, out loud. Explain to dealer or other players what you're doing when you make an index play.

    OR, just tell the Pit Boss you're here to count cards, 'cause you heard it was legal in Missouri. Then sit down and count away.

    See if they 86 you, or if they just take countermeasures. To be clear, see if they ask you to leave, or if they just half shoe, or two hand shuffle, or flat bet you. Now you have to behave; if you get obnoxious they can--and will--86 you, and that would muddy the experiment.

    Report back to us. I am waiting with baited breath.




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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    Now you have to behave, if you get obnoxious they can--and will--86 you, and that would muddy the experiment.
    See this is where the experiment fails. Boz obviously can't behave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boz View Post
    Unfortunately, your second argument is less than compelling. Disruptive is hardly well-defined. Counting cards may be disruptive. Countermeasures, specifically authorized, is certainly disruptive. What's the root cause of this disruptive conduct? The countermeasures themselves, or the card counting that prompted them? Further, the "et seq." indicates that the rule does not apply in instances where the rules otherwise authorize departure from the PRESUMPTION (this 'right' is merely a rebuttable presumption--in other words, it's a revocable privilege.). Pertinent is the regulation I already cited in the Policies section. So, this doesn't work for me. I think they are just doing what most casinos, including Indian casinos, already do.
    To make it easy for the legally challenged. It says you can't be denied access for how you play but only for things unrelated to your play. It is absolutely clear to any sane, reasonably intelligent person. Just don't break the law or be disruptive (poor conduct) and they have to let you have access to all card games. Your attitude of just twisting things to the absurd to keep from learning something is going to get you on my ignore list. I don't think any current posters are on my ignore list. Trolls and disruptive people have gotten there in the past. Usually they either leave the site voluntarily or get banned.

  9. #39


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    Quote Originally Posted by Boz View Post
    Yes, they cannot be ejected for anything not listed, including murder.

    Instead of angrily clicking hate buttons, does someone want to explain why Missouri can't bar counters? I'm honestly asking, I'd like an explanation. Seemed like an appropriate thread to ask.
    I probably have more experience with MO casinos than anyone else that actively posts on this board, other than the long time pros maybe. But I live in the area, so I've been playing in MO (St Louis/KC) for the last 2.5 years and I can tell you from personal experience that MO CANNOT ban/bar/BO for card counting. I've probably played at least 1,000+ hrs in MO casinos since I started counting. I can tell you that they also don't flat bet you either. Here are the counter-measures they will hit you with.

    • Half Shoe (on 6D)
    • Quarter Shoe on DD or 2-rounds only
    • Preferential Shuffle (doesn't occur offen, but it does happen every so often when half shoe doesn't deter you)
    • Table Max Lowered - Once had a pit boss change table max from $1,000 to $50 on a $15 DD game, AFTER they were only dealing me 25% of the deck!

    I've been counter-measured at every casino NUMEROUS times now in St Louis (and most in KC), so I've basically stopped playing there. I had one incident where a PC actually tried backing me off and ejecting me from the casino, but I explained that she couldn't do that, so she didn't argue with me. MO btw is extremely OSN active! I had a friend pull up my OSN profile recently and they have 9 photos of me in there (including 1 of my license plate) with multiple notes and entries. All of these entries and photos came from St Louis/KC, except for one entry that came from a nearby out-of-state casino in the St Louis market.

    So there you have it.

  10. #40


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
    Thanks T -

    The Ohio law unfortunately doesn't spell it out so clearly, but the regulations (in my OP) appear to indicate the same general intent...
    Why are you thanking him? Aren't you already aware that many APs have this fantasy that Missouri can't ban counters? I call it fantasy not because it's untrue, but because they just kinda made it up out of wishful thinking. Thanks for being on my fantasy team and not giving Boz proof? OK.

    Yeah, no kidding the Ohio law doesn't spell it out. No kidding it looks the same as Missouri. Kinda convenient to forget about Flash's 86 isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post

    Since you don't want to believe what we're saying
    Don't want to believe what? You haven't given me any facts to disbelieve. Just a bunch of opinions and inconsequential observations that happen in every jurisdiction. I believe you don't know and that you want to believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    See if they 86 you, or if they just take countermeasures.
    OK. I guess I've already proved that lots of places cannot legally ban card counters, since that's the experiment. Since you're so concerned about it, how about you call a Missouri casino and ask them what they are legally allowed to do.

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