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Thread: Hand shuffle vs. Automatic shuffler. New cards vs. Old cards.

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    Question Hand shuffle vs. Automatic shuffler. New cards vs. Old cards.

    Alright, without falling too far down the rabbit hole of voodoo and without getting terribly scientific either necessarily I would like to ask the forum:

    Excepting the extra value of advanced plays, do you see any difference between a clean and proper procedural hand shuffle and an automatic shuffler? And if the table does employ only hand shuffling, do you see any difference in a fresh deck vs. older well-used counterparts?

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    Excepting the ability to possibly deploy advanced opportunities against a hand-shuffled game, I would say that the ASM is usually faster, affording for more hands per hour.

    As for new, versus worn cards (I believe that is what you mean), once again, I suspect that simply comes down to the ability to possibly identify certain cards, as a consequence of dealer checking for blackjacks through the warping of cards. Otherwise, I suspect no advantage one way or the other.

    But, as my wife constantly reminds me, I could be wrong.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

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    I suspect that you wanted to exclude advanced plays on the premise that some are only possible with a live dealer. However, if you know the shuffle procedure performed by the asm, and it is exploitable, some of these plays might become more predictable due to the consistency of the machine shuffle.

    Other than that, I agree with Frank. I like asms because there is less time wasted between shoes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    I suspect that you wanted to exclude advanced plays on the premise that some are only possible with a live dealer. However, if you know the shuffle procedure performed by the asm, and it is exploitable, some of these plays might become more predictable due to the consistency of the machine shuffle.

    Other than that, I agree with Frank. I like asms because there is less time wasted between shoes.
    Agreed on all counts - no pun intended.

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    I have found some dealers that it seems their hand shuffle makes cutting different depths bring different results. If I want a shoe like the last I cut in one area. If the last sucked I cut another area to get a good shoe. I never seen this happen on ASM's. The shuffle procedure was really simple. The casino wanted as short a shuffle as possible so they would get more rounds per hour and make more money. They also cut really deep pen to get more rounds in. They make a shitload of extra money doing this. Another place even took away the side bet at certain tables because high rollers liked it and they got a lot more rounds per hour in and the casino made a lot more money. Anyway most of the time I don't notice any difference between hand shuffle and ASM. But there are exceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I have found some dealers that it seems their hand shuffle makes cutting different depths bring different results. If I want a shoe like the last I cut in one area. If the last sucked I cut another area to get a good shoe. I never seen this happen on ASM's.
    Disagree on both items.
    Hand shuffle creates more opportunities. You can cut to ace concentration, cut rich slugs into specific area, cut poor slugs out of play. Just need to be observant, and accurate in your slug assessment.

    Some ASMs can be manipulated. I won't be more specific than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I have found some dealers that it seems their hand shuffle makes cutting different depths bring different results. If I want a shoe like the last I cut in one area. If the last sucked I cut another area to get a good shoe. I never seen this happen on ASM's. The shuffle procedure was really simple.
    I can't believe I'm stating that what T-three wrote is too brief or missing something........so somebody wake me up , BUT...........aren't you? If you are not truly shuffle tracking or have observed a slug of cards you want to take out or bring into play...........isn't this bordering a little on "voodoo"? How can you justify stating just changing where you put the cut card is going to change the results from the last shoe............WITHOUT explaining a LOT more.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    I can't believe I'm stating that what T-three wrote is too brief or missing something........so somebody wake me up , BUT...........aren't you? If you are not truly shuffle tracking or have observed a slug of cards you want to take out or bring into play...........isn't this bordering a little on "voodoo"? How can you justify stating just changing where you put the cut card is going to change the results from the last shoe............WITHOUT explaining a LOT more.
    Somethings are better left unsaid, Especially on a public forum - however, the brevity if his comments is somewhat unusual.

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    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    There's no question about it, hand shuffled is the way to go. You like ASM's? Go play them, have fun, as long as you go without me. I'm sticking with a hand shuffled game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post

    Some ASMs can be manipulated. I won't be more specific than that.
    I have seen the most advanced ASM doing crazy things. The older model has only one liner screen. The newest model has 640x480 VGA graphic screen. If you sit at the first base or walk around, you can see what kind of ASM the table is equipped. I notice the latest model ASM with the graphic screen has the following ability:

    1) The screen turned bloody red when one card is missing. It did so to alert the pit boss to change the cards.

    2) Clumping the shoe. There was an incident that makes me a believer. Once there were a few AP at the table, so pit boss came to change setting of ASM then ASM generated some impossible shoes in a roll. Every shoe has the following patterns: 20 consecutive small cards without a face card (mostly 2, 3, 4, with rarely 5 and without any 6). Then 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 6, etc. Then more than 12 eight's in 15 consecutive cards. Then another good mixture of fives and faces only. Then clumps of nines. Then repeat all the patterns again.

    If I chose hand-shuffled or older one-liner ASM, even at the same casino, I seldom encountered such crazy shoes. My conclusion: avoid the latest ASM as possible as you can.

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    Really stoked on the differences in posts and questions raised so far. I must admit I REALLY want to learn more about advanced procedures but it looks like I'm going to have to find a special training session to actually talk about these secret procedures and games, not limited to blackjack. Maybe one of you could point me in the right direction to learn more.
    In any case, one of my stores changes cards every day at the same time, in addition to employing a pretty simple hand shuffle. I was wondering if that would "change the cards" so to speak, or disrupt a positive session in your experiences.

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    This is all myth. Ploppies don't trust CSMs even though they offer a lower edge. Counters don't trust an ASM even though they get more hands per hour. There is no programmable anti-counter deck composition--that would be an illegal manipulation. The only rational reason not to play an ASM is if you are shuffle tracking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    so pit boss came to change setting of ASM then ASM generated some impossible shoes in a roll
    Every shoe possibility is equally likely unless the game is rigged.

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