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Thread: How to attack this game..

  1. #1


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    How to attack this game..

    A casino I visit has a DD game, H17, double on 9-11, you can double after splits if you have 9-11 on one or both hands, face up dealt. The good thing is that it's often dealt to 80+%.

    another rule is that if you play 2 hands, one must be min. $25, the other must be min. $50 and you cannot play two Hans unless you start with 2 hands and if you drop to one hand, you cannot return to two hands until the next shuffle.

    i use to play one hand, start at $25 for TC 0 and below, going up to TC1 for $50, TC 2 for $100, TC3 for $125 and TC4+ for $150, with max $175 for higher TC's.

    I was was doing okay for a while, then hit a bad streak. I tried starting each shuffle with one hand of $50, another with $25, staying at this for TC0-TC-1, two hands of $50 for TC 2, $75 for TC3, and $100 each for TC4+. I drop to one hand the minute TC goes below Zero and revert to the one hand plan till the end of the shoe.

    however, since a significant number of hands are played at TC0 and TC1 with $50, $25 on table, I am wondering if the two hand style is a waste.

    i really do not want the "I would not play such a game" comments but if someone good at math can answer, Zi appreciate it.

  2. #2


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    First of all the pen for the DD game is excellent and trumps any rules deficit you might have. Co-Variance makes two hands a much more attractive play as you can increase your EV while not increasing your variance. I believe the forced two hands at negative counts is worth the extra variance due to the deep penetration offered. Especially if they only require one of the hands to be $50. Normally, 2 X 50 would be required. You will get more positive count rounds with this penetration and they will be strong.

    Two hands can also provide some level of betting cover in positive situations as the hands bet amounts do not need to be equal (does not change ev or variance) and you can use that to obscure the ramp.

    Be careful, DD is the counter catcher and very difficult to hide you ramp. Short sessions. Do not camp out on this one.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Well Zee, I won't say the above. IF you run the sim with your purchase of CV Data you will see that playing two hands at a higher TC will improve your profits substanitally. Exactly why they won't let you do it. Yes, you're going to hit some bad streaks with Hi Lo. The streak will magnify playing two hands. Especially, if you cannot look at your 2nd hand until you've finished playing the first hand. They are in control of the game - not you.

    But, from what I've read, you have deep pockets and extreme patience so many will say you should be okay.
    The penn is great and sitting in my usual spot ar 3rd base, I can see the cards of anyone else on the table and that helps some.

    For DD games, what count is a better one? I retire at the end of month, will be living in Franklin, TN so will not be playing as often and on a daily basis but will take several trips a month (Tunica, St. Louis, etc.) and a trip to other places about every couple of months.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    The penn is great and sitting in my usual spot ar 3rd base, I can see the cards of anyone else on the table and that helps some.

    For DD games, what count is a better one? I retire at the end of month, will be living in Franklin, TN so will not be playing as often and on a daily basis but will take several trips a month (Tunica, St. Louis, etc.) and a trip to other places about every couple of months.
    thanks Stealth. The heat is not much because it's more a locals casino and their record of my playing is in the negative. The pit folks and dealers all know me and surveillance appears to be pit generated. Moreover, I am moving at the end of the month so I am not too concerned.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    A casino I visit has a DD game, H17, double on 9-11, you can double after splits if you have 9-11 on one or both hands, face up dealt. The good thing is that it's often dealt to 80+%.

    another rule is that if you play 2 hands, one must be min. $25, the other must be min. $50 and you cannot play two Hans unless you start with 2 hands and if you drop to one hand, you cannot return to two hands until the next shuffle.

    i use to play one hand, start at $25 for TC 0 and below, going up to TC1 for $50, TC 2 for $100, TC3 for $125 and TC4+ for $150, with max $175 for higher TC's.

    I was was doing okay for a while, then hit a bad streak. I tried starting each shuffle with one hand of $50, another with $25, staying at this for TC0-TC-1, two hands of $50 for TC 2, $75 for TC3, and $100 each for TC4+. I drop to one hand the minute TC goes below Zero and revert to the one hand plan till the end of the shoe.
    I am not in front of my computer with CVCX on it, but you should check your bet ramp - especially for your "one hand plan." With those rules, you're still playing at a (slightly) negative expectation when the Hi-Lo TC == 1.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by CallSaul View Post
    I am not in front of my computer with CVCX on it, but you should check your bet ramp - especially for your "one hand plan." With those rules, you're still playing at a (slightly) negative expectation when the Hi-Lo TC == 1.
    Saul, when I am playing 1 hand, the optimal betting seems to call for $50 at TC1, $100 for TC2 but being of a conservative nature, I don't jump up to $50 at RC 2 (TC1) after round one of head to head play, my actual TC would need to be 1.25 or so.. RC is +2, about 12-15 cards have been played. Same thing, TC has to be slightly greater than 2 for me to bet $100.

    I dont know know if this is right or wrong and it's why I am seeking feedback. Thanks

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post

    Congrat's on reaching that finish line of retirement. Hope your new location will be a wonderful place for you and your family to live.
    I worked a gruelling 4-5 hours last week.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Moreover, I am moving at the end of the month so I am not too concerned.
    Yes, but back off could get you entered in OSN which will follow you around. I like the game and would play it (2 hands) a more aggressively with top bet of 2X150.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    (Hall of famer) Don S and Sir Norman utilize Felt. Seems like an easy enough step up from Hi Lo. Yes, it would give you an advantage to see all the other players cards. But your question really is about what is "in" you and your casino's tolerance. The bet ramp is your main issue. CV Data will allow you to adjust and run various sim's in several different ways to establish maximum profitability. But more importantly, comparing it to your tolerance for risk (variance),

    For instance, maybe your casino will allow a 1 to 8 ramp for their DD game. So you might ramp at TC 2+ and then add a unit for each increment of TC 3+ to T9+ and up being your cap. Or maybe you prefer two hands. What I'm saying is you must match your bet spread to your level of comfort and be sure it is within casino tolerance. No, it isn't easy. Playing out a few thouand hands on Verite exactly the way you play in the casino well present a huge tell about a very important factor in the game...YOU. Sorry Zee, but I'm a firm believer the bottom line increase isn't based on the games you play but rather the ones you pass on by.

    Congrat's on reaching that finish line of retirement. Hope your new location will be a wonderful place for you and your family to live.
    Thanks Moses. I will look into Felt. Is it in Norms book in this site? Hopefully, it's not too different from HiLo.

    Yes, given my $30k BR and my own comfort level, I keep my max bet to $200 on any one hand. When I started, I used to get uncomfortable laying out $75. I am getting better at it. A one session loss of $2000 does not bother me but when 2-3 happen in a row, I really get down on myself.

    i had a bad two weeks and about 6 losing sessions in a row. I feel a bit better since I won a small amount the last two sessions but I am still down quite a bit this month.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Yes, but back off could get you entered in OSN which will follow you around. I like the game and would play it (2 hands) a more aggressively with top bet of 2X150.
    I'd imagine it's near impossible to be a serious player and not wind up in OSN eventually, unless maybe Vegas doesn't put people in it as much as the rest of the continent. It's not as bad as all that. Back-offs don't tend to get you in OSN, it's the perma-86s. I've seen my own entry in OSN. Aside from the immediate aftermath, I wouldn't attribute a single back-off to OSN. Surveillance checks it, not the pit. And they are only going to check if they already suspect you. And big places are going to do their own assessment, not rely on 3rd party information only. It will only hasten the conclusion of the process that you already set in motion. And the chincy, small places have no access...they will back you off if you parlay your winning bets and know basic strategy. It'd be much worse to get 86ed and flyered by a major network of related casinos.
    Last edited by Boz; 05-16-2016 at 10:55 AM.

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