New Player Struggling

**Notsure** · 04-28-2016, 07:22 AM

Hello everyone. This is my first post and first time on this forum.

I started playing Blackjack again a little more seriously just recently. I learned Basic Strategy and started practicing then went to a few Casinos the past few months. I blew a bunch of money last time I went so I decided I would learn how to count and not have that happen anymore ha

I watched a few videos online, read the "World's Greatest Blackjack Book" by Humble and Cooper, and have been practicing on the Burntcard Blackjack app on my Surface. I adopted the Hi Opt I strategy and haven't gotten to the point where i can do an Ace side count or anything else.

I've been getting pretty good at counting, but needless to say it is not working, atleast on the program I'm using. I even tried to test out my method on real cards dealing out to myself but I am still losing betting units left and right. I have been consistently losing money on this app I have regardless of the number of hands played. I even decided to cheat and write down my count and use the advanced techniques of varying my basic strategy based on the count using the charts and I'm still losing money.

I'm just wondering if I'm doing anything wrong, if there are common rookie mistakes or if some of these computer programs are unreliable as far as their randomization. I'm hoping there is a flaw in the program I'm using or my dealing abilities and not a flaw in my counting method.

I guess it's hard to get input if no one can see what I'm doing wrong but I def wanna learn how to get this right, especially before I go to the real casino.

Also, do you have any suggestions as to which website or app to get purely for fair practice or any other way to practice to see if my method is working or not?

Thanks.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-28-2016, 07:33 AM

Hi-Opt I was designed as a stepping stone to a COMPLETE count
wherein the player Side-Counts Aces, 7's, 8's ,9's. It is not nearly
as strong as the Gordon Count that moves the Low Cards to the
2 - 5 grouping.

In any case, Hi-Opt I, used as usual, is a VERY weak count.

Note that Hi-Opt II is a VERY powerful.

**Freightman** · 04-28-2016, 07:34 AM

You'll get a few responses all over the nap. Just a brief comment from me since I'm a tad busy.

Hi Opt 1 is a pretty good count, provided you use an Ace Sude Count. Without the sidecount, it's pretty weak. Either perfect the ASC, or switch counts.

Switch to what is the question. Are you playing shoe or pitch. Hi opt 1 is better than hi Lo, however, if you're not sude counting aces, hi Lo is a lot better. There are lots of counts out there.

**Freightman** · 04-28-2016, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Hi-Opt I was designed as a stepping stone to a COMPLETE count
wherein the player Side-Counts Aces, 7's, 8's ,9's. It is not nearly
as strong as the Gordon Count that moves the Low Cards to the
2 - 5 grouping.

In any case, Hi-Opt I, used as usual, is a VERY weak count.

Note that Hi-Opt II is a VERY powerful.

Flash, if he's not side counting at hi opt 1, he's certainly not going to sidecount at hi opt 2. He's a rookie.

Not sure, hi opt 2 properly used is very powerful. If you're not comfortable with sudecountsudecount, and it appears that you are not, there are other simpler counts that will get the money, though at a slower rate.

**Zach Black** · 04-28-2016, 08:03 AM

Casino practice can be expensive. I'd recommend using the CVBJ practice software by the owner of this site at qfit.com. It's the best available.

Unless you live in Reno, the hi opt 1 without the ace side count is not a good choice for a count (assuming your local casinos offer mostly 6 Deck) If you add the ace side count it's a decent choice for single and double deck games.

Learning to count is not going to eliminate losing sessions. If you read through the archives you will see stories of veteran players that have losing streaks that go on for months. Having a large enough bankroll and the nerves to ride out these rough patches is part of the game.

Using a simulator like CVCX will give you the ability to determine what the optimal bets are for each count based on the game, your bankroll, and the level of risk that you're comfortable with.

I'd suggest further reading starting with the free book here; https://qfit.com/book/index.htm

**Romes** · 04-28-2016, 08:38 AM

If you're at the point where you can't side count then one of two things needs to happen:
1) You must practice more in order to be able to side count proficiently.
2) You must use a count that doesn't require a side count.

Since you're a newbie and just starting out, I always recommend Hi/Low, but it's honestly to each their own. The right count for you is the count you can perform proficiently and with zero mistakes. Play around with a few others and see what feels right/easiest for you.

Also, on your losing... There have indeed been people who practice with software and just have a bad run. Blackjack is a constant barrage of winning and losing. Learning to count cards will not drastically improve your win rate. You will in fact still lose more hands than win, but the key is identifying the advantageous hands so you can bet more and win more money on those, thus win money overall. It's quite possible that even when 'cheating' and writing the count down that you have a bad run and could lose. The best graphs I've seen representing a years worth of data have what "looks like" WIN/LOSS/WIN/LOSS/WIN/LOSS/etc... There have been pros (including myself) that have lost for MONTHS. The game can be quite frustrating, but so long as you are counting and playing correctly (most important) then you must trust the math. This is just discussing the "counting" aspect of counting, and not Bankroll, RoR, etc, etc, etc... Which I hope you're aware of.

**Sweaty** · 04-28-2016, 09:08 AM

Hello Notsure,

I am not sure (haaaa) how much you know about counting, as I haven't read the same material. I will tell you this though.

To play correctly you need big bankroll, maybe bigger than you're expecting.

Losing streaks can last well over 100 hours on the tables, so you and the program may both be doing things correctly, you're just hitting negative variance.

I will recommend Norm's CVBJ as others have and will. It really is a work of art for us in the community.

Once you feel ready to hit the casinos I recommend picking up Norm's CVCX. IMO this is the most valuable piece of software a card counter can own.

Another thing to think about as many people are going to throw different count suggestions at you is; how comfortable are you converting the running count into a true count? (Running count/decks remaining= true count)

If you are not confident in your ability I suggest what is known as an unbalanced count.

There are multiple options with varying degrees of difficulty. I'd recommend UBZII if you decide to go that route.

Good luck with your endeavor!

**Notsure** · 04-28-2016, 09:18 AM

Thankyou for the replies. That makes sense my method isn't effective without the Ace Side Count. I guess the Ace count is essential when counting.

I'm using Hi Opt I because I want to build on the method and do this regularly. I feel like with practice I can master it with the Ace side count and then start memorizing the charts that alter your basic strategy depending on the count.

My near term goal however is to master Hi Opt I with the Ace side count before I start going into the casino. I'll be honest, I've been practicing for a week and it's hard enough to remember my count without having to worry about the Aces so it will definitely take alot more work.

Thanks for the tip about Hi Opt II. I'll consider that when I get a little more proficient.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-28-2016, 09:23 AM

Ignore the following at your peril:

Bankroll sufficiency is of crucial importance.
It is one of the main reasons that you may fail.
Here are some very approximate guidelines,
expressed as units (minimum bets):

800 units -- . .Fantastic Game
1,000 units -- Fine Game
1,200 units -- Marginal Game
1,400 units -- Poor Game

**Notsure** · 04-28-2016, 09:23 AM

And Sweaty, yes I'm pretty comfortable converting the running count into true count. My main issue is just flat out remembering the count from hand to hand. This makes it exponentially harder for me to do a side count.

And thx for the suggestions about CVBJ. It looks a little expensive though! I found it for $90 on one site but I will consider it.

**Sweaty** · 04-28-2016, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Notsure

And thx for the suggestions about CVBJ. It looks a little expensive though! I found it for $90 on one site but I will consider it.

Depending on your stake, it could cost you a few hours of EV, but well worth the peace of mind.

I'm sure Norm(forum owner/software creator) would never advocate a poll, but I assume a large majority of serious players on this board use or have used this software.

If you're struggling to keep the count, maybe try visualizing it in your head. Some people picture the number itself, for me it's almost like a linear scale. 0 being the center and each RC being a "notch" in each direction, although I don't conciously do this anymore.

**Romes** · 04-28-2016, 11:18 AM

Another thing for remembering the count many do (including myself) is to use another language for negative numbers. This drastically reduce "flipping the sign" when it's -3 and you forget, then you go "oh yeah, 3..." and take it as +3.