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Thread: Backcounting Hi-limit rooms

  1. #1


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    Backcounting Hi-limit rooms

    Anyone have any experience back-counting hi-limit rooms? I was always under the impression all hi-limit rooms are No Mid shoe Entry, but after finally getting CBJN and reading their Vegas games im starting to wonder if it is indeed allowed. The reason im suspicious of it, is because I know for sure these $100 minimum games in CBJN for some Vegas casinos were in the Hi-limit room because I scouted these exact casinos while there for the past week. So after reading about it in CBJN, there wasn't any listing for these games as 'nm'(no mid shoe) so im guessing there are indeed games in the hi limit that can be back counted. Which leads me to my next question.

    Has anyone had any experience backcounting hi-limit room blackjack games? What kind of heat will I get? Will there be quick back-offs if I stay more than 30 minutes in and out? Should I just back-count one shoe jump in and when it goes bad just leave the room and dont come back for a couple of days etc?

  2. #2


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    Problems:
    1. Tables are often empty or only occupied by one player in HL rooms. If they are empty this means no backcounting.
    2. You will be seated next to a high roller ploppy who will get angry at you and expect the casino to kiss his ass like they do everyday when they buy him dinner etc. Most likely, it would become a NMS table, or you would be offered another table.
    3. Even if 2 doesn't happen, the player will most likley get mad at you and you will have to deal with that.


    I will confirm for you that some HL games allow mid deck entry, it is not completely unheard of.

  3. #3


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    Yes, there are hi limit rooms that can be back counted but they are under higher levels of scrutiny and generally the players at the table are often difficult to deal with. Many asking if you can wait until the shoe is over. Any attempt at this protocol should be scouted before hand and the room should have enough traffic to provide some cover. Discussion with players regarding waiting until the shoe ends, etc will lead to even more scrutiny. Proceed with extreme caution.

    Recommend using spotters instead of back counting assuming mid shoe entry is permitted. This can also remove the other players concern about you entering mid shoe if you are just taking the spotters seat. This must also be in a room with enough active play to provide some cover.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  4. #4


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    Unless you have a massive bankroll/unit, I don't really see the benefit to back counting the high limit room. Most places have $25 games on the main floor, and if you're talking about Vegas even higher limits on the strip. Why go to the high limit room where just for being in the room you may be noticed instead of just blending in with the general public? This would also alleviate the pains highlighted above by ACFERRET and Stealth (empty tables, conflict with high rollers, more intense scrutiny, etc).

    Also, I may be wrong, but from your OP it sounds like you're a Lone Wolf. If that's the case, and you're back counting your own tables to wong in on, that'll get you a TON more heat than calling in a teammate. I'd imagine you'd get tossed from a HL room on your 2nd wong in, when they confirm it.

    If your "back count" spread was something like $400-$800, this could be completely accomplished by the main floor games, where you don't have a lot of the mentioned issues. Is there a particular reason you want to be in the HL room(s)?

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Romes View Post
    I don't really see the benefit to back counting the high limit room.
    As with most things, it depends. There are high limit rooms that are good environments for spotters (not so much back counters) and often the game rules are much better that the floor. Point is, this another one of those items we contend with that is better defined with effective scouting and good decision making before hand. There is NO answer to the question that fits all situations. Concentrate on learning what to look for and then make judgements and execute.

    For example, we actually did back count and call in a BP in a high limit room in the mid west. Yes, I was the BP and I got into a "discussion" with a player who didn't want me to enter until the end of the shoe. Brought more attention than we wanted or needed but, in this instance, no negative consequences other than I pissed off one of the two players at the game on entry. Left at end of shoe with win. This casino was standing room only on the main floor at this time and you could not back count (even getting a spotter seated was hard) and the high limit room had several other people standing around watching games. It was a good decision to make the play. Came back next day, floor was not as busy, high limit was only active on a couple of tables, made no sense so we passed.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Romes View Post
    Unless you have a massive bankroll/unit, I don't really see the benefit to back counting the high limit room. Most places have $25 games on the main floor, and if you're talking about Vegas even higher limits on the strip. Why go to the high limit room where just for being in the room you may be noticed instead of just blending in with the general public? This would also alleviate the pains highlighted above by ACFERRET and Stealth (empty tables, conflict with high rollers, more intense scrutiny, etc).

    Also, I may be wrong, but from your OP it sounds like you're a Lone Wolf. If that's the case, and you're back counting your own tables to wong in on, that'll get you a TON more heat than calling in a teammate. I'd imagine you'd get tossed from a HL room on your 2nd wong in, when they confirm it.

    If your "back count" spread was something like $400-$800, this could be completely accomplished by the main floor games, where you don't have a lot of the mentioned issues. Is there a particular reason you want to be in the HL room(s)?
    The reason I mentioned backcounting hi limit because in most casinos now have garbage games on the main floor with only about 2 decent playable games on the main floor whereas the rest of the good games are in their hi limit rooms per CBJN. I was there last week and scouted and found very few playable games on the main floor in each casino, but when i go on CBJN it says there ARE good games there, but 100 minimum, which leads me to believe they are talking about the hi limit rooms and per CBJN it says mid shoe entry IS ALLOWED. Thats why I asked the question.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamMoney View Post
    The reason I mentioned backcounting hi limit because in most casinos now have garbage games on the main floor with only about 2 decent playable games on the main floor whereas the rest of the good games are in their hi limit rooms per CBJN....
    See my other post from Stealth's Value of Penetration thread... Rules shouldn't be at the top of your list:

    Quote Originally Posted by Romes View Post
    I think newer players don't get that concept. Not sure if that's what you meant to type... New players seem to think "I can do +1 and -1, let's go start winning" and don't have any concept of Penetration, RoR, etc, etc.

    Penetration (in my opinion) is #2 on the list of importance for a game:
    1) Heat/Tollerence
    2) Penetration
    3) Speed
    4) Side Bets
    5) Rules/HE

    Ironic how many newbies waste the day walking around looking for S17 games, when that's near the bottom of my list for things to look for...
    What's the point of the best game in the world if you're not allowed to play it, or if you can't bet more than 2x table min?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    The pen is also normally better right along with the rules than out on the floor in the pit but you'll find them all to be NMSE games with few exceptions. There is no such thing as wonging in on hi-limit room tables in AC and PA, they are all NMSE tables. In many places in AC you'll have all 8D, H17 out of an ASM on the floor often 2/8 and then have 6D,S17, 1.5/6, hand shuffled NMSE in the pit. Obviously there are exceptions to this, such as Borgata, Tropicana but AC blackjack is garbage for the most part. Flash mentioned S17 at Golden Nugget on slow stakes 8D. Nope! All of those tables are 8D,H17 outside the pit. I did a recon of it and they had all 8D, H17, 2/8 out of an ASM, nothing has changed.

    I believe they'd seriously scrutinize someone wonging in and out of tables in a high limit room a little more than those out on the floor and really really scrutinize you trying to wong in to a NMSE table is what I'm thinking. If I knew of someplace with crowded tables in the pit that allowed mid shoe entry I'd certainly go for it. There are more productive ways to tackle the pit than involve more than one person but wonging in isn't part of the equation, primarily due to that pesky little NMSE thing!

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
    The pen is also normally better right along with the rules than out on the floor in the pit but you'll find them all to be NMSE games with few exceptions. There is no such thing as wonging in on hi-limit room tables in AC and PA, they are all NMSE tables. In many places in AC you'll have all 8D, H17 out of an ASM on the floor often 2/8 and then have 6D,S17, 1.5/6, hand shuffled NMSE in the pit. Obviously there are exceptions to this, such as Borgata, Tropicana but AC blackjack is garbage for the most part. Flash mentioned S17 at Golden Nugget on slow stakes 8D. Nope! All of those tables are 8D,H17 outside the pit. I did a recon of it and they had all 8D, H17, 2/8 out of an ASM, nothing has changed.

    I believe they'd seriously scrutinize someone wonging in and out of tables in a high limit room a little more than those out on the floor and really really scrutinize you trying to wong in to a NMSE table is what I'm thinking. If I knew of someplace with crowded tables in the pit that allowed mid shoe entry I'd certainly go for it. There are more productive ways to tackle the pit than involve more than one person but wonging in isn't part of the equation, primarily due to that pesky little NMSE thing!
    Tarzan, I was speaking about Vegas not AC and PA lol. Vegas seems to have mid shoe entry allowed on their high limit room games according to CBJN.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    I've seen NMSE in pits in Vegas also. If you have mid shoe entry and they are crowded why not? Go for it. I would get verification of where these mid shoe entry tables are is all. It's not like CBJN hasn't been wrong before (even if far and few between) although it's a fantastic asset.
    Last edited by Tarzan; 04-08-2016 at 02:11 PM.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by TeamMoney View Post
    "Vegas seems to have mid shoe entry allowed on their high limit room games according to CBJN."
    C B J N does NOT list NMSE. Where did you ever get that idea?

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    C B J N does NOT list NMSE. Where did you ever get that idea?
    Actually it does. It's listed right next to the game rules as "nm" (no mid game entry) or "nmm" (no mid game entry and no mid game spreading to multiple hands). You'll see this pretty frequently in CBJN.

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    My bad.


    I always ignore those indicators as High Limit games
    are surveilled too closely to even attempt Wonging In.

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