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Thread: Survey of Importance of AP Components

  1. #1


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    Survey of Importance of AP Components

    Many post are responses to newbies on the how-to's and why's of counting and various issues of AP play. Perhaps if they understood all the components and their relative importance of them it would help in their journey.

    I am curious as to the perspective of the AP community on the importance of the components of an AP's game.

    Would appreciate your response to the following survey. In order to see the relative importance of each, please enter 1-100 for each item in the table below with the total of all items equaling 100.

    I will post composite results.

    For example, my response to the survey is as shown. Other comments and critiques are welcomed.

    AP COMPONENTS
    Importance (1-100)
    A. Basic Strategy 10
    B. Counting 15
    C. Indexes 10
    D. Camo Indexes and Plays 10
    E. Camo Techniques 10
    F. Games Selection 15
    G. Betting Strategy and Ramps 10
    H. Bankroll Sizing 20
    TOTAL 100

  2. #2


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    Unfortunately, I think the answers to the question are each dependent on the player's own circumstances. Nevertheless, I'll post my results. (Note that I'm not a "veteran" counter, but this is just my opinions from my experiences & readings.)

    A - 15
    B - 20
    C - 5
    D - 5
    E - 5
    F - 25
    G - 10
    H - 15

  3. #3


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    I would say this applies to card counters as opposed to APs. If you are a VP player you are an AP and most of these mean nothing.

    Also, I agree with RollingStoned. For someone who is starting out betting small it is all about ABC. DE should be zero.
    Last edited by RWM; 12-03-2012 at 12:47 PM.

  4. #4


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    A - 50

  5. #5


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    To me, it's more of the order of operations. I throw D and E out for most people, because you can't afford camo when counting.

    A-C are foundational, and must be mastered before you can do anything. These are like the operations side of the business.

    F-H are important for bankroll planning. These are the finance side of the business.

    I would add an equally important item: heat sense. You must know what it and is not heat, what brings it down, how to turn it aside, when to leave, etc.

  6. #6
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    A 25
    B As in which count to use 10
    C HH 20 shoe 5
    D 0
    E 0
    F 20
    G 15
    H As in size HH 10 shoe 25

    One's act is very important and can overshadow most items on the above list. Except as related to one's act, camo plays are highly overrated, IMO.

  7. #7


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    I appreciate the feedback. I should clairitfy that I am most interested in responses from AP players from an AP perspective. I know there is a required sequence for a newbie to become an AP.

    If you are an active pro or serious amateur level playre then how doe these issues rank for you.

    Again, thanks for the feedback.

    Stealth

  8. #8
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    I am not sure I understand what you are trying to do here. To be a successful card counter, you need to employ and master several of these components, so if you are trying to say that one or two are more important than another, that doesn't necessarily work. For example, you can have basic strategy down pat and be a decent counter, but if you aren't able to select good games (or don't have access to good games), it is still moot. Or you can have basic strategy down, count well and select good games and will still fail if you don't understand the money management aspects of betting strategies and backroll sizing. So IMO, you need to master several components to be successful. But, I will attempt some sort of ranking from my perspective, but I am going to employ Tthree's format of listing, rather than the one you laid out.

    1.) Game Selection. You have to be able to pick and play beatable games and know which offer you the best chance. Being a good counter and knowing BS are useless if you select 6-5 games and 6 deck games with 50% penetration.

    2.) Basic Strategy and Counting. These two go together. You can know basic strategy without learning to count, but you can't learn to count without knowing basic strategy.

    3.) Betting Strategy and ramps. You can master #1 and #2, but if you are not betting properly, you could still be playing a losing (neg EV) game.

    4.) Bankroll Sizing. This terminology seems a little strange to me. You are not sizing your BR, but sizing your bets, based on the BR, but I will go along with it. #1, 2 and 3 can turn your game +EV, but if you don't understand bet sizing in relationship to bankroll (RoR), you will still go broke.

    5.) Indexes.(<- no such word) Index play has slipped on my list because it is not necessary to gain an advantage as #1, 2 and 3 are, but index play can help increase that advantage. I am not saying that it isn't important, but you can gain an advantage with no or little index play.

    6.) Camo Indexes & play and Camo techniques. I am not even sure of the distinction between these two. I just don't have much use for Camo. The advantage from card counting is just too razor thin to begin with. You just can't afford to give any back IMO, unless you are playing at higher limit levels, black and above, and that doesn't mean spreading to black. For most players camo efforts are wasted, IMO.
    Last edited by KJ; 12-04-2012 at 12:20 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Anton Chigurh's Avatar
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    Bankroll sizing is most important - just behind breathing and eating.

    You shouldn't even be at the table unless you know playing strategy (basic and indices), so that's obviously important.

    Next comes game selection: speed, penetration, and rules, in that order, IMO. Sure, crappy penetration can kill a speedy game, and crappy rules can kill good penetration, but, of the three, speed has the most power to compensate for weaknesses among the other two. Complementary to these is Wonging, which you should be doing whenever possible, under all conditions, anyway.

    Don't bother with camouflage unless you're playing too long spreading green, or playing black.

    Postscript: On further thought, I'd put Wonging/Wongability/Wongitude/Wonginess ahead of game speed, for the simple reason that, when you can do it, the boost in reward-vs-risk is so powerful.

    BTW, your system of ranking them with relative importance has a drawback: a few of the items should all be rated 100, so you can't expect to total them up to 100.
    Last edited by Anton Chigurh; 12-04-2012 at 12:46 AM.

  10. #10
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    AP COMPONENTS
    Importance (1-100)
    A. Basic Strategy 10
    B. Counting 3
    C. Indexes 1
    D. Camo Indexes and Plays 2
    E. Camo Techniques 10
    F. Games Selection 30
    G. Betting Strategy and Ramps 1
    H. Bankroll Sizing 5
    TOTAL 62















    As you can see, these don't come close to totaling 100%

  11. #11


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    Basically, you need all of these components to have any chance of winning over the long haul. One isn't more important than another, although some are foundational, and others build on this foundation.
    The Cash Cow.

  12. #12
    Member BookerPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Basically, you need all of these components to have any chance of winning over the long haul. One isn't more important than another, although some are foundational, and others build on this foundation.
    Agreed, Moo, like having a car with three wheels. Lacking or weak in any of the components, you can only go so far.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Basically, you need all of these components to have any chance of winning over the long haul. One isn't more important than another, although some are foundational, and others build on this foundation.
    Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say in my initial paragraph, but didn't say so as clearly as Mr Moo. Love the new avatar, Moo.

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