Backoffs with max bet below $50

[FalseCount]

In the near future I will be visiting both Tunica and Laughlin, which I understand have good low limit single and double deck games. With a spread of 5 -> 40 with some wonging when feasible I can get EV around $20/hr from counting alone. Does anybody have experience getting backed off or know of anyone backed off for playing similar stakes? If I should be worried at all, which casinos in these cities are the sweatiest?

I would assume these stakes are just too meager for any casino to bat an eyelash, but I've been wrong before.

[Romes]

I'm showing for a single deck with a HE of .31% and 100 hands per hour, using a 5-40 spread wonging out at anything greater than TC -2 (5, 5, 5, 10, 20, 40...), so having your max bet ($40) out by TC +3 you can expect about $8.96/hour from the blackjack alone. If you have side bet EV adding in to that, etc, then great, but the BJ itself I'm struggling to see where you're coming up with $20/hour unless you're factoring in some kind of comps/points/cash back/etc.

As far as the spread goes, the standard double deck spread is 1:8, but heat is extremely location dependent. I haven't played in either Tunica or Laughlin, so I can't give the location correct read, but unless you're playing for 4+ hours straight usually red chips aren't an issue. You'll clearly need cover as the counts in single/double can change rapidly and you might have to go from betting $40 to $5 (but you shouldn't).

You don't have to give the exact rules, but if you want to post the HE, estimated hands per hour, and your spread, I can refine the numbers a bit more... though I don't expect them to change very much as I put your max bet at TC +3.

[FalseCount]

What do you have as the penetration? That is the key determinant. I do not have defined information on what penetration is offered, so this is kind of a wild card that explains a lot of variability in simulations. Thank you for the response.
I wong out at -2 TC in single deck, and -1 TC in double deck if mid shoe re-entry is permitted. I use Hi Lo with ~40 indices. I get more hands per hour by counting two tables whenever possible and where mid entry is permitted (large increase in EV). I do things besides count, but I factor them in separately.

[FalseCount]

In Laughlin my understanding is .44 house edge and .4-.5 cut off on single deck.
In Tunica my understanding is a .19 house edge with .9 cut off in double deck.

[CallSaul]

In Tunica my understanding is a .19 house edge with .9 cut off in double deck.

I was last in Tunica a few months ago, and played quite a bit of DD at low limits (mostly $10 and $15 tables). The rules where I played were H17, DS, RSA. That's about a .35% HE. I think any .19% HE DD game would be S17, and I didn't come across any of those games in Tunica (not saying they don't exist...but I didn't see any).

Here are some notes from my Tunica trip that I posted in October: https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...l=1#post173846

[Zach Black]

In Laughlin there are only two casinos that offer single deck. Both will preferential shuffle when you triple your bet. Your penetration will be either rule of 5 or 6. Tables were mostly managed to full, so not playable in my book. If you go don't worry about a BO, because you'll likely not want to go again. Get CBJN for the double deck info.

[FalseCount]

Thank you Zach and Saul for the relevant notes. My information is about a year old, so certainly not reliable. Thankfully both of these visits are mandatory, I am not going out of my way at all to visit either location, so regardless of actual conditions the trip will not be "wasted."

[Romes]

What do you have as the penetration? That is the key determinant. I do not have defined information on what penetration is offered, so this is kind of a wild card that explains a lot of variability in simulations. Thank you for the response.
I wong out at -2 TC in single deck, and -1 TC in double deck if mid shoe re-entry is permitted. I use Hi Lo with ~40 indices. I get more hands per hour by counting two tables whenever possible and where mid entry is permitted (large increase in EV). I do things besides count, but I factor them in separately.

50% PEN calculations on the SD. I think it might be a bit tough to get out at TC -2 and TC -1 for SD/DD respectively. Counting 2 tables definitely helps and could get you "extra hands" though if you have good counts at both tables you won't be able to bet both, so you can't just count those as "extra hands" so to say. I too do other things than the main game most of the time I play BJ, but you mentioned $20/hr from counting alone? I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but just to make sure you have the proper expectations; I don't think that's going to be your hourly EV with that spread and these games.

This is also with 2 assumptions about the 2 biggest playing conditions being unknown... PEN and heat.

Might I recommend, if your bankroll can take it instead spreading $10-$70? This would be less than your 1:8 spread yet yield you about $16/hr instead of about $9. I like doing this on $5 tables because if the count really gets "that bad" other than sitting out you can always work your way down to table min if need be, thus really concealing a $5-$70 spread (though not a true $5-$70 it's quite beneficial).

[MJGolf]

No matter what your "old" info or CBJN says, you will NOT find $5 single deck or double deck in Tunica I'm afraid. However playing conditions there for red chip betters are not "sweaty". With the closing of Harrah's, you aren't going to find many pitch games period. But scouting is the key. The good thing about Tunica is that you can easily drive to each of the main casinos, with two pockets having three casinos each that are walkable between each other.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Laughlin is a complete waste of time.

I can assure you that even the most
simple attempts at card-counting
will result in an immediate back-off.

They are paranoid. With red chips it
may take an hour if they are busy.

NOTE: Laughlin's patrons are mostly
elderly retirees, if you are under 50
years of age, you WILL stand out.

I once played BJ in a Laughlin casino.
I decided to play light green. They called
the Shift Manager immediately. He took
a seat at the treble and as soon as I went
from a $25 bet to a $50 bet he introduced
himself and politely "backed me off"

[CallSaul]

No matter what your "old" info or CBJN says, you will NOT find $5 single deck or double deck in Tunica I'm afraid.

When I was in Tunica in October, Bally's had a $5 pitch DD game. Fitz and Roadhouse had $10 and $15 pitch DD games, and Horseshoe and Gold Strike had $25 pitch DD games.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Tunica is good for low stakes DD action with 50% pen.

Keep your spread "polite" and do not be greedy is all.

[FalseCount]

Laughlin is a complete waste of time.

I can assure you that even the most
simple attempts at card-counting
will result in an immediate back-off.

They are paranoid. With red chips it
may take an hour if they are busy.

NOTE: Laughlin's patrons are mostly
elderly retirees, if you are under 50
years of age, you WILL stand out.

I once played BJ in a Laughlin casino.
I decided to play light green. They called
the Shift Manager immediately. He took
a seat at the treble and as soon as I went
from a $25 bet to a $50 bet he introduced
himself and politely "backed me off"

Fascinating!

I am very young, so should be quite out of place. As I mentioned, I am only briefly stopping in and I have to go regardless of blackjack conditions. If I try a light spread I will report back with how long I last.