For full time card counters, KJ, others..

[moses]

KJ said his best guess on his average rounds per hour is about 40 rounds/hour (I think he is counting more than just time playing in this hour). At 70K rounds/year that makes 1750 hours/year that he considers being spent ob counting BJ. That makes his hourly income for time spent on BJ $45/hour assuming an average yearly income of $80K. I suspect KJ has been quite conservative in his figures and has included time a lot of us would not include in his figures but there they are Zee. Your 500-700 hours is way off the 1750 hours derived using math and his numbers to get the figures. I hope your play is not this sloppy.

Hmmm. $100k annually (on average) at $45 per hour works out to about a 45 hour work week. I'm sorry, but traipsing around casino's putting dollars at risk for 2222 hours per year sounds too much like work to me. I made $1500 a game when officiating or $750 per hour. But if I take into consideration travel to and from games as well as clinics and pre/post game meetings the $$$$ per hour drops considerably.

I wouldn't suggest this lifestyle to my son or son-in-law for $45 an hour. I think it would get mundain for retired folks to employ this work week and likely mismanage larger investments over the long haul. So what part am I missing here?

[Three]

Nice post KJ. I think you have a little misconception about what is going on here but everyone has their own take on things. That is the beauty of a site with such diverse opinion. You get every angle exposed. I think the attempt by all who bailed ship that was lead by you to discredit some of these here are having their reverberation as some those that knew the truth and that the attempts to discredit were just fantasy try to express the truth. As I hope you can tell from my posts I don't try to steer anyone to any approach and can get frustrated when I think people try to bite too much off too fast. The fact is I can only make a guess based on their posts to base my opinion that they are trying to progress too fast. They know themselves better than anyone. If they can be patient to play until they are ready no matter how long it takes and have the ability and dedication to learn and perform the tasks needed to be proficient at whatever approach they choose, I am sure they will be successful at counting. Winning money has a lot to do with knowledge beyond counting as I am sure you are well aware. They also need to learn these things.

As for the clique thing. I am sure those that remain posters many of which use the simple approach don't feel that way. I can relate to the feeling because that is the way those that left made everyone else feel. Statements like you need to play for "meaningful money", a term that means something different to everyone but clearly meant betting a slash and burn style of approach, was required to have any authority made those that were extremely successful playing under the radar feel the same way. The funny thing is I don't really care what anybody thinks of me. I post what I believe and people can think what they want. If your clique wasn't intentionally trying to make others feel this way then you can understand that we aren't either. We just express our beliefs and try to educate the ignorant. If that was your intention then shame on you. I wouldn't call us a clique. we are just people that take things beyond the extreme to do what others may not think is possible. Naturally we talk with one another because few others understand our methods despite being explained things repeatedly. That makes one appreciate the few that can have an intelligent conversation about non-linear approaches all the more precious.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"I will move to Florida ..."

Unwise choice; for you'll not at all be
pleased with the BJ to be found there.

Only 8 deckers with H17.

[KJ]

This, I'll repeat "this" is the point your Hi Lo followers are missing. They simply do not have the volume of games to employ your strategy. It goes without saying few have your instincts and they will never achieve same by playing in little cow towns. Thus there are only two solutions. 1.) stop playing 2.) get smarter.

Moses, stop with the "your Hi-Lo followers". I am not moses (you are) leading any such "followers" to the promise land. I honestly don't care what count a players chooses to play. It really is best that someone choose and play whatever best suits them.

My real concern and gripe is with comments that Hi-lo or any other 'legitimate' level one count (by legitimate I am excluding things like A-5 and speed count) no longer works, are "weak", or that one can't make money playing them when there are a large number of both professional and non professional players doing so. That type of what I call "agenda" is detrimental to newer players as it influences them away from one of their options and probably the one best suited for newer players. That's all I am after. Don't distort the fact and let players make their own choices.

Moses, yes, I have tailored my game, plan of attack, including long-term goals to my situation, right down to relocating 2500 miles away from friends and family, to what best suits that game plan and longevity goals. But that doesn't mean, that is what is required to still have success with hi-lo. Hi-lo is still, even as we head into 2016, a legitimate count that can and will win money.

It doesn't matter if you play Las Vegas, 300+ days a years, as I do or play what you call "little cow towns". I wasn't always in Las Vegas. The first 5 and a half years of my career I was based in Atlantic City and while not exactly a "little cow town", between playable games in that location at the time and my then red chip level of play at the time, I had a very small rotation of 4-5 casinos. But again, I don't want to get back into where I am promoting hi-lo, I am not. I just don't want the facts distorted by claims that it no longer works. It still does.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Maybe KJ has no friends that he can admire and respect.

A "clique" is, for the most part, in the mind of the beholder.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

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KJ[/COLOR];179863]"My real concern and gripe is with comments that Hi-lo or any other 'legitimate' level one count ..."

Actually, it would be a fool's journey attempting to use Hi-Lo in a game with
as high a House Edge as Moses has to contend with; and that doesn't even
begin to reference extreme heat and constant presence of "preferential shuffling"

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[moses]

Nice post KJ. I think you have a little misconception about what is going on here but everyone has their own take on things. That is the beauty of a site with such diverse opinion. You get every angle exposed. I think the attempt by all who bailed ship that was lead by you to discredit some of these here are having their reverberation as some those that knew the truth and that the attempts to discredit were just fantasy try to express the truth. As I hope you can tell from my posts I don't try to steer anyone to any approach and can get frustrated when I think people try to bite too much off too fast. The fact is I can only make a guess based on their posts to base my opinion that they are trying to progress too fast. They know themselves better than anyone. If they can be patient to play until they are ready no matter how long it takes and have the ability and dedication to learn and perform the tasks needed to be proficient at whatever approach they choose, I am sure they will be successful at counting. Winning money has a lot to do with knowledge beyond counting as I am sure you are well aware. They also need to learn these things.

As for the clique thing. I am sure those that remain posters many of which use the simple approach don't feel that way. I can relate to the feeling because that is the way those that left made everyone else feel. Statements like you need to play for "meaningful money", a term that means something different to everyone but clearly meant betting a slash and burn style of approach, was required to have any authority made those that were extremely successful playing under the radar feel the same way. The funny thing is I don't really care what anybody thinks of me. I post what I believe and people can think what they want. If your clique wasn't intentionally trying to make others feel this way then you can understand that we aren't either. We just express our beliefs and try to educate the ignorant. If that was your intention then shame on you. I wouldn't call us a clique. we are just people that take things beyond the extreme to do what others may not think is possible. Naturally we talk with one another because few others understand our methods despite being explained things repeatedly. That makes one appreciate the few that can have an intelligent conversation about non-linear approaches all the more precious.

My blackjack work week is about 12 hours. The collective time invested in other financials is even less. The work I do on my house with the proceeds probably doesn't amount to 50 hours a year, maybe 100 if you include mowing. The forum is educational and fun for me. But one is enough. I guess I just like Norm. He seems like a straight-shooter to me. Sort of like a cyber bar to hang out with those that have similar interests. I mean have you ever tried talking blackjack with members from your church? Well, dont!

So KJ. I just don't get you. I mean you work very hard at your craft and make decent money. I think you posted you also work a job part-time or full-time as well. How in the heck do you have time to worry so much about the future of blackjack communities? Jump around to several different forums first bashing and then apologizing? Sitting in judement of others whether they stack up a APs, pro's, or whatever. As Denzel Washingtons might say, please explain to me like you would a 6 year old why all this and clique's means so much to you? It appears you have a great deal of success going for you. But do you realize how grade school girly you sound?

[RS]

It can be summed up as simply as this (I think)-

That type of what I call "agenda" is detrimental to newer players as it influences them away from one of their options and probably the one best suited for newer players. That's all I am after. Don't distort the fact and let players make their own choices.

In other words, quit misleading people into thinking the only way to play a winning game is by using some crazy system with side-counts...or that HiLo or other more simple counts are essentially useless.

[moses]

Moses, stop with the "your Hi-Lo followers". I am not moses (you are) leading any such "followers" to the promise land. I honestly don't care what count a players chooses to play. It really is best that someone choose and play whatever best suits them.

It doesn't matter if you play Las Vegas, 300+ days a years, as I do or play what you call "little cow towns".

Lol. I'm not sure about leading people to the promise land. Moses was lost in the desert for 40 years, found it, and then expired. Not exactly my plan. I was thinking more along the lines of the burning bush goes hand in hand with this game.

To me, driving 100 miles to play two tables would be considered a small town. Personally, I wouldn't touch a multi deck game anymore than I'd play a 6.5 single deck game. For me, it's a matter of principal and time/money investment opportunities. But if I did it would likely be a similar approach to your description. My point is, that if your going to drive 100 miles to play two tables, you might want to have a little more in your arsenal than just a Hi Lo count.
But hey, I've seen people bet on horses because they were white or dogs named after a relative. So what do I know or care?

Living in Nevada affords opportunities that other don't have, like playing numerous tables, or legally betting on sports. I was actually giving you a compliment.

[KJ]

If your clique wasn't intentionally trying to make others feel this way then you can understand that we aren't either.

T3, I don't have a “clique”. Never did. Not here. Not other sites that I participate on. Not back on Ken's site. If you are referring to the two other members who exited the site back in the summer, after being very critical of you and perhaps somewhat unrightfully so (olive branch), I have met neither. One I consider my closest BJ/AP, internet friend and one is just another legitimate successful player that I occasionally communicate with and have the luxury of benefiting from, but they are NOT my “clique”.

You have brought up the events of last summer several times in the past few days. Suggestion: get over it. Move forward. Emotions ran high all around. Right or wrong in the way it was handled and opinions expressed, I believe it was a sad day for the site in that a couple of legitimate, successful AP's exited, no longer to share their experiences and express their opinions for all of us to benefit from. This site is not better for that loss.

As for you not “trying to steer anyone to any approach”, we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I will give you the benefit of doubt and say that maybe you don't mean to and maybe you don't realize how much you are influencing other players/members.

Examples. You often talk about how you have experienced no downturns this year and attribute that to your higher level advanced methods that “smooth out the ride”. Maybe so, maybe not. Your short-term results as a professional player is not significant to make that determination. I mean Tarzan, also using very advanced methods, has acknowledged over the years that he still experiences some pretty negative runs. That is the nature of the game. Whether it is your intent or not, other members, even experienced members read what you say, and think your advanced methods are the way to go as they will eliminate variance.

Just today, you said “I expect to win about another 6-10K in the around 25 hours I anticipate playing before the years end”. Is that the way it works? No variance? No possibility of short-term losses. You can “expect” to win such and such over the next short term period? Whether your intent of not, you are misleading and influencing other players into thinking they should do what you do as there is no negative variance.

And since I have gone down the path of Festivus and am airing my grievances towards you (Seinfeld reference ), again, whether you mean to or not, you come off as often talking down to many of us. It's very off-putting and leads one to not want to “like you” very much.

[KJ]

Maybe KJ has no friends that he can admire and respect.

Thank you Flash THAT is a productive comment. Happy Holidays to you as well.

[moses]

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Actually, it would be a fool's journey attempting to use Hi-Lo in a game with
as high a House Edge as Moses has to contend with; and that doesn't even
begin to reference extreme heat and constant presence of "preferential shuffling".
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Unlike you Flash. I don't worry a whole lot about house edge and how it compares to the rest of the world. But I respect the fact that you do and have such a great deal of knowledge. For me, it's a simple question. Does the game give me what I need, expect, or want from a time/investment standpoint? If it didn't, I simply wouldn't play. It's just that simple.

But I'd expand to the ponies or the WNBA before I'd consider jumping on a plane and living in motels to play a multi deck game. Congrat's on your $72K year. Very impressive. I know each investment individually but never tally the collective total. I don't want that $$$$ figure in my head for future years.
I do know my portfolio grows significantly for a retired guy and my expenses are darn near nil.

I should take my foot off my ego and follow Sharky's NFL plays.

[KJ]

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and that doesn't even
begin to reference extreme heat and constant presence of "preferential shuffling"

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I don't think this holds true as much as you think in this day and age. I am not referring specifically to Moses's situation as you were, nor am I all that familiar with that many locations outside of Vegas.

A couple nights ago, I had a small Christmas gathering of friends and neighbors. Among my best friends outside my household, is a long-time pit guy at a big strip casino, whom I pick his brain every chance I get. Among my neighbors is a guy who works surveillance at a nearby local type casino. I am not quite as close to him, nor does he share as much info as I would like (but I try ).

But, on this night, with drinks in hand, conversation did include backoffs and evaluations among other things, and at both these properties, evaluations are done by computer software, rather than some human, in pit or surveillance counting down using hi-lo as was the previous standard. So using a more advanced count that even slightly gets you closer to perfect advantage (computer) is actually more of a disadvantage in the evaluation process and will result in more heat and countermeasures.

This information was not new to me concerning my friend that works a large strip property. We had discussed that before. But I though maybe the spread of computer software evaluations was limited to the larger, modern, strip type properties. The fact that this is now the norm at smaller local type properties here in Vegas, tells me it is probably the norm most places or will be shortly.

Several years ago, I decided that the way to achieving more longevity was less about trying to trick pit/surveillance with camo plays and even something like a higher count. The way forward was short sessions which means not providing enough data in any single sitting and playing within tolerance levels. Short sessions and the idea of not enough data becomes even more important when considering computer software evaluations.