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Thread: DS or DOUBLE STAND, can you explain please?

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    Junior Member 3plusone's Avatar
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    DS or DOUBLE STAND, can you explain please?

    Hi everyone...

    I am kinda new to playing Blackjack and card counting and I have a question here about what exactly does DS or DOUBLE STAND mean when playing basic strategy and getting a Dealers 3-4-5-6 to my A/7 (soft 18)

    Basic Strategy say's: "DS" or DOUBLE STAND...

    Which means to bet DOUBLE or STAND, correct?!!

    How do you determine weather you should DOUBLE your bet or STAND in such an instance?

    A/7 is a total of 18 (soft 18) correct.

    vs. Dealers 3-4-5-6

    I would think that A/7 or soft 18 having a total of 18 points a player would chose to STAND not DOUBLE. (NO??!!)

    When would I want to double and when would I want to stand in such an instance? Can someone please clairify?!?

    Thank you kindly

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Hi 3plusone

    The rules at some casinos allow you to double on any first two cards. At other casinos, you may only be allowed to double on 10 or 11. So depending on the rules of the casino you double if it is allowed, otherwise you stand.

    For example your A7 with 6 decks. You double down on 2 thru 6 if it is allowed at that casino, otherwise, you stand.

    The reason you double down with 2 thru 6 if possible is because those are poor hands for the dealer. When the dealer has a poor hand, it is to your advantage to put more money on the table and that is what doubling down does. You will not always win these hands of course but mathematically, it is to your advantage in the long run to do so.

    I hope this helps.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    The reason you double down with 2 thru 6 if possible is because those are poor hands for the dealer.
    The actual reason you double is because the sim says to double. Often you can figure no logic to why a move is right. You don't need to understand why. You just need to trust the data. That said, soft doubles are based on the dealer bust probability as much as the chances of you getting a strong hand. Note that you only soft double on hands that the dealer is more likely to bust.

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    "DS" or "Double / Stand" means "Double if you can. If you can't double, then stand."

    ie: A/7 is a 2 card soft 18, you're permitted to double, so you double down.

    A/2/5 is a 3 card soft 18, and you're (usually) not permitted to double, so you stand.


    If you play a game where you may be permitted to surrender, and the BS box says "surrender/stand" [or "surrender/hit"], then you surrender first if you can (ie: T/6). If you're not able to surrender (ie: T/2/4), then you would stand or hit or whatever the second option is.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    The actual reason you double is because the sim says to double.
    Hmmmm wonder why the sim says to double? Wouldn't have something to do with EV would it?
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    The reason you double down with 2 thru 6 if possible is because those are poor hands for the dealer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Note that you only soft double on hands that the dealer is more likely to bust.
    Tthree if the dealer is more likely to bust, wouldn't you say that is a poor hand for the dealer?

    Anyway, I appreciate your correction.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

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    Don't get all defensive. My point was that just trust the sim that generated the plays. Don't worry about why. My closing comments indicated I was supporting your reasoning. It is just so many newbies try to understand why you make a play. You make it because it is the way to end up in the best position in the long run. There is no need to understand anything other than that.

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    "For example your A7 with 6 decks. You double down on 2 thru 6 if it is allowed at that casino, otherwise, you stand."

    Note: Above correct for H17, but not for S17, where you don't double vs. 2. But, you knew that!

    Don

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    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    But, you knew that!
    Yep
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    The actual reason you double is because the sim says to double. Often you can figure no logic to why a move is right. You don't need to understand why. You just need to trust the data. That said, soft doubles are based on the dealer bust probability as much as the chances of you getting a strong hand. Note that you only soft double on hands that the dealer is more likely to bust.
    C'mon Tthree..........normally you "overcook" your answers but this is TOO brief for a beginner. You are so far past this concept that it's probably just intuitive to you.

    3+1:
    There is a REASON for the sim results. You double down to increase your earnings overall. You may not win as many hands or more of them, than just standing or hitting........whichever basic strategy move is required. But it's based upon the mathematics of the given choice. You double (to win more money....in the long run) than to stand. But if double is NOT allowed, then depending upon the situation, you hit or stand, and THAT choice is given because the math states that in the "LONG RUN", it's the better choice.

    (I bet you he is looking at a "chart" or matrix that has DS with a legend that says "double otherwise stand" or maybe even an abbreviation or note with even less words than that. It can be confusing to a beginner.)
    Last edited by MJGolf; 12-17-2015 at 12:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    C'mon Tthree..........normally you "overcook" your answers but this is TOO brief for a beginner. You are so far past this concept that it's probably just intuitive to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    (I bet you he is looking at a "chart" or matrix that has DS with a legend that says "double otherwise stand" or maybe even an abbreviation or note with even less words than that. It can be confusing to a beginner.)
    I thought Bodarc covered the DS issue thoroughly so no further comment was needed. I just wanted the OP to realize that reasoning why a decision is right is not required. It is right because in the long run that is the best decision or in other words in the long run you will have more money if you make the decision according to the strategy.

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    Junior Member 3plusone's Avatar
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    Thank you for all of the replies, very helpful!

    I am still not 100% sure though...

    If you are given an option to DOUBLE DOWN and for whatever reason you can't at that table wouldn't the next best thing be to HIT as opposed to STAND?!!

    Why does the "sim" suggest to STAND alternativly as opposed to HITTING?!!

    This is where the confusion is for me...

    If you will win more in the long run over time by DOUBLING DOWN for whatever reason. Wouldn't the next logical play be to HIT as opposed to standing?

    THIS I DON'T UNDERSTAND?

    B.T.W
    I am currently learing basic strategy by using, "Blackjack sn*per" (I don't want to drop any names)

    I am transcribing it's 2 and 6 deck Basic Strategy into CHART form so that I can memorize and use them.

    I also have a full version of Casino Vérité Blackjack V5 which I recently downloaded and I am somewhat familiar with the Hi-Lo Card Counting systems.

    2-6 +1
    7-8-9 = 0
    10-A -1

    Divide the running count by the number of decks remaining, to get what is known as the "True Count."

    This is what I know of Blackjack and I truly LOVE the game and I hope to learn more!

    P.S your forum looks GREAT!!

    3plusone
    Last edited by 3plusone; 12-17-2015 at 04:50 PM.

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    This question by the OP is what I was talking about. The answer to the question does not involve understanding anything about the cards being played. Just the information about the expected return of each playing option.

    Here is a series of charts of expected value for any action in BJ for the rules etc listed: http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/1/

    Note:
    Hitting Soft 18:
    3: +0.090248%
    4: +0.118502%
    5: +0.147613%
    6: +0.147613%
    Standing Soft 18:
    3: +0.148300%
    4: +0.175854%
    5: +0.190561%
    6: +0.283444%
    Doubling Soft 18:
    3: +0.177641%
    4: +0.237004%
    5: +0.295225%
    6: +0.381506%
    Last edited by Three; 12-17-2015 at 06:10 PM.

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