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Thread: What to do in this situation?

  1. #1


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    Exclamation What to do in this situation?

    I've made a similar thread but didn't really get any clear answers the first time so thought i'd ask again.

    Situation 1:
    1) you're backed off and you go to cash in your chips and the cashier/cashier manager is refusing to cash in your chips without identification. You're in the middle of nowhere and it will be a complete hassle to resell or cash in another time. Do u call gaming? police? what do u do?

    situation 2:
    2) you're backroomed/detained inside the casino and they're making you sign a trespassing citation/warning. Police is present but they're not allowing you to leave unless u sign the document. If you don't sign the document Police is threatening to take you to jail. Most likely a court date would be issued. Again u are in the middle of nowhere and likely facing a night in jail. You are completely alone. What do u do?

    situation 3:
    3) Cop shows up to the casino after you're backed off and asks for ID. you refuse and he asks for your name. Knowing the Cop may give the casino your name, what do u do?

  2. #2


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    Well, i've looked up the laws and spoken to a few people about them but i still have questions.

    Yes it is unlawful detainment, but the police won't care or they'll make up some bullshit charge like obstructing justice or public disturbance in order to detain you legally. Who is Frank in this situation?

    Yes u can ask the police what law you have broken, but they wont give u a direct answer. It is my understanding you do not have to give any information to the police unless u are detained/arrested... in which case u are required to give your name/address/date of birth. In places that are regulated though, u might be required to give more info.

    My problem is that the police may pass on your information to the casino and thus griffin/OSN without knowing fully what type of damage they're doing.

    Anybody have any thoughts on just sitting there silent?? instead of even talking, that way they cant charge u with anything?

  3. #3
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    All
    casinos cash chips by mail. They have no choice. You can take the chips home.

    If you box up the chips and mail them to the attention of the Head Cashier, signature

    required, certified mail, return receipt requested, they'll mail you a check for the sum.

    A (current) student of mine was 86'd from an island casino after winning > $45,000 in one day.

    They said that they will do a wire transfer of the funds. Being in a foreign country he had no recourse.

    It took over a week, but the money DID appear, in full, in his bank account.


  4. #4


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    I am indeed a licensed attorney, but the only casinos in my state are native american owned and operated. So state law does not typically govern, but federal law, and tribal law applicable.

    Situation 1 calls for non-adversarial approach. If you are not from there, defuse situation, comply, get your money, and safely depart.

    Situation 2 facts make me wonder how you ended up backroomed or detained. In most, if not all situations, casino staff would have little to no legal right to detain you, and neither casino nor police would have any valid legal authority to compel you to sign anything. If for some strange reason this happens, you should have already placed a call to your attorney. Your tolerance for police misuse of authority and possible false arrest, is subject to your willingness to assert your rights, and endure being subjected to criminal legal process (from arrest, detainment, bail/bond hearing, and subsequent hearing/trial).

    Situation 3 gives me pause. In my state, and likely most, police do not have the authority to compel you to produce identification unless they have probable cause to suspect that you already have or are in the process of committing a crime (obviously not card counting, and realizing that emergency conditions might result in local prosecutor refusing to charge police misconduct). Once again, your tolerance for ramifications of potential police misconduct controls.

    Note that the preceding comments might vary if the local police have gaming commission jurisdictional authority. Also, standard disclaimer: Laws in different states might be different, including the application of various applicable gaming regulatory provisions. Accordingly, you should promptly seek legal advice from counsel licensed to practice in the jurusdiction where you are backroomed, detained or confronted by casino staff and/or police officers.

    All of the preceding are offered without comments on your civil legal rights and possible civil claims that might be validly asserted against the casino, its individual staff, the state/county for misconduct by police officers, and/or against the individual officers for acting in an ultra vires fashion (beyond their authority).
    Last edited by Frank Galvin; 11-26-2015 at 05:37 PM.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

  5. #5


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    Thank you all for the great responses.... they were all very helpful.

    @moses- the one interesting point u brought up was the safety issue... Yes i can see how carrying large sums of money can attract criminals. Although i do think this case is unlikely overall. What do u think? You can always ask security for an escort to your car? Intention is not to make enemies just to assert your rights and not be violated.


    @zenmaster_flash - How does this work exactly? you have 45k in chips and u just mail them out? What happens if they get lost in the mail? Any chance the casino pockets the chips and says they did not receive them? Will have to experiment with this for sure. More info on this subject would definitely interest me if u have anything on it.

    @Frank- Your tolerance for police misuse of authority and possible false arrest, is subject to your willingness to assert your rights, and endure being subjected to criminal legal process (from arrest, detainment, bail/bond hearing, and subsequent hearing/trial)
    This does sum it up for me. For most people i think when confronted with the option of signing a form or be subjected to arrest/criminal legal process most would choose the former... but for me i think i may choose the latter. Any suggestions what you would personally do if u were in this situation? Bite the bullet and fight it in court?

    Personally I dont mind spending the night in jail and getting arrested, however i wonder if that would change any outcome or is that just making the inevitable of getting in the griffin/OSN book a harder process on myself? Even so would what financial settlement would i even be able to get for being put through a night of hell/police misconduct if little to no damage was done? probably very little i imagine if anything.?

  6. #6


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    Tolerance spreads its many tentacles. Tolerance might apply to: concerns about physical harm; to emotional distress; to general reputation; risk to professional licensure; potential avoidance by one's customers/clients/friends; etc.

    Any potential damages awarded from trial (judgment if procurred, is still only a piece of paper, and you have to be able to collect upon it), or casino/state willingness to pay a settlement, will likely only result from your experience of one or more of these damaging situations (or similar circumstances).

    Playing in the legal arena is a gamble, as you cannot control judges' predilections, juror misfavor of card counters (perception that we are all degenerate gambling losers), and risk of no recovery (sometimes bad results happen, even when the law and the facts are on your side - legal variance, if you will). That's why most lawyers push their clients to settle, rather than fight on based upon some notion of righteousness and principles (not to mention the jeopardy confronting the lawyer's contingency fees).

    Just a few thoughts for your consideration.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Trust me, the criminal element exists. I know quite of few of them personally. No. I'm not one of them. But I was fortunate to have a very savvy guy and long time resident point them out, how to point them out, what to do and not to do before he passed. Generally speaking, security judisdiction is within the walls of the brick and mortar casino. The streets are within the jurisdiction of the police but there is way more than they can handle. So the parking lot or garage is where most crimes are committed. Their mentality isn't a whole different than that of APs. It's their job.

    My advice is stay out of those secluded places...especially alone.
    Hey Moses, yes i do believe you, and have heard personally from close AP friends who have encountered the types of people you are referring to. Definitely scary stuff and that is definitely something i will pay attention to. How common would u say this is for a high roller (someone with more than 5k cash on hand) to encounter one of these people if they go to a ton of casinos? (in terms of %)

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Galvin View Post
    I am indeed a licensed attorney, but the only casinos in my state are native american owned and operated. So state law does not typically govern, but federal law, and tribal law applicable.
    Frank, I am sure that if you are visiting those native american casinos in your state you are already well aware of the federal laws, and the applicable tribal laws. What recommendation could you give to any players "at all levels of play" that do frequent native american casinos, who are more than likely ill-informed of their legal rights? Thank you in advance for any information you may provide.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-28-2015 at 06:44 AM.

  9. #9


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    I just want to say this is a great thread, and the numerous responses in the thread by moses are all outstanding!

  10. #10
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    All
    casinos cash chips by mail. They have no choice. You can take the chips home.

    If you box up the chips and mail them to the attention of the Head Cashier, signature

    required, certified mail, return receipt requested, they'll mail you a check for the sum.

    A (current) student of mine was 86'd from an island casino after winning > $45,000 in one day.

    They said that they will do a wire transfer of the funds. Being in a foreign country he had no recourse.

    It took over a week, but the money DID appear, in full, in his bank account.

    Interesting option..........have done this with sportsbook tickets but not chips. Did your student not only send certified mail, but did he INSURE the value of the chips, in case they WERE "lost" or misplaced? Might reduce EV but also might be worth the cost of insurance.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    "Did your student not only send certified mail, but did he INSURE the value of the chips, in case they WERE "lost" or misplaced? Might reduce EV but also might be worth the cost of insurance."
    He paid not a cent for mailing / insuring.

    First Class Mail, when certified, etc. is insured for a small fee.

    Certified letters are treated like the Hope Diamond.

    "special" mail is never lost. The USPS is proud of that.

    In fact the Hope Diamond was once sent through the

    mail by ordinary 1st Class Mail. You misread my post

    about my student. He was given no choice, but to leave

    the all of his winnings in the casino and return to the states.

    The casino is owned by a particularly nasty outfit.

    At the time, I was VERY pessimistic about the possible outcome.


    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 11-28-2015 at 11:59 AM.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Think of it like real estate Location, Location, Location...and time of day. Mid-day is far better than midnight. But don't count your money in a sportsbook or at the bar. Watch very closely when you color up and at the cage. Then a stall in the bathroom if you feel the need to recount. A busy one - not one downstairs or out of mainstream. Generally, I cash in at the sportsbook just after they open and just before my bank opens. It's easy to park close by that time of day - then directly to my car and directly to the bank. Quite often there is a fine line between security and the real bad asses. I have a buddy that's well known for "breaking up" fights. Security just comes in later and hauls both parties away. Let's just say he softens them both up quickly and considerably. I don't think I'd ask security for an escort as that in itself could bring attention. $5k is a fairly good sized wad off cash to carry. Might want to keep some of that locked in your car or often motel rooms will have a safe.

    Racial tension still exists. Generally speaking, give respect and you'll get it in return. Drink tokes are a good universal langauge. I've seen out-of-town badasses start poppin off. They have no idea what they're getting themselves into. I've saved more than one and they didn't even know it.

    The good samaritan may think he is giving money to a person less fortunate. He could be exposing his cash which gets called to someone else. If you're going to give have it ready well in advance.
    good advice, some of which another AP has also reiterated to me. Would u ever not park your car in the parking garage though? It seems other than a parking garage/outdoor self parking there are usually very limited options of parking that are not on casino property. Parking a block away would only make things more dangerous. thoughts on Valet parking? Carrying weapons or protection?

    If you have any stories of close encounters whether they be first hand or anecdotes would appreciate if u could share some. Seems like it would be very valuable to someone like me who is just trying to be cautious in these types of environments

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Typically, at night I park in lighted areas as close to the casino doors as possible. In your case, alone, in the middle of nowhere, winning enough money to get 86, cashed chips and money in hand, I'm on a deadassed sprint to my car. Normally, a brisk walk will suffice. But I've seen schnokered strolls where one is counting their money while looking for where they parked the car...and I just shake my head.

    My first robbery encounter was in the mid 80's. I'd just cashed a $1,200 football ticket at the cage. A lot of money to me back then. Evidently, the excitement brought on the sudden urge to crap like a goose. And I mean RIGHT NOW. So I head down this long corridor after seeking directions to the nearest restroom - hoping it was close. Good news is I made it. But as I'm sitting in relief I look up and someone is peering through the stall door at me. I sat in silence for a few minutes and he went away. I came out to wash my hands and he was leaning up against the back wall - probably sizing me up. I washed my hands and looked back at him through the mirror. My mind was racing with I just cashed $1,200, dang near crapped my pants, and now I'm about to get robbed. The message during our stare down I sent was I ain't going down without a fight.

    A security guard walks in highly motivated to take a whiz thus paying no mind to us. They guy waits a few seconds and then exits. Now I'm thinking do I bother this security guard about my potential robbery while he is in the process of relief? I decided to wait. He immediately went to the door and the guy was out of sight. He would've had to sprint down that corridor to disappear that fast.

    Another day I'm in the sportsbook on a Sunday afternoon. They give away free beer/hot dog coupons to the significant bettors. So I'm standing in line as there was nowhere else to stand. The guy sitting at his table says "stop crowding me man." At first I ignored him. He repeats - only louder "man...I said stop crowdin me!" I'm not really even that close to even touching the guy. And there was nowhere else to stand and still be in line.

    So I'm thinkin. Man. I just leave church, I'm standing here in a casino, minding my own buisness, and now about to throw down with a guy while standing in line to get a free hot dog. My cell phone rings. It's my friend Tony who is watching the whole thing go down from across the sportsbook. He says "the guy is hungry" I'm like "what"? The guy is hungry "just give him one of your coupons."

    So I followed Tony's advice and said "w-w-would you like a hot dog coupon?" The guy sort of looks at me, a little surprised and nodded yes. I get my dog, go back over to Tony and ask what the hell was that all about? The guy had just got out of prison and it's a big rule you don't crowd people in prison. I knew I could get all the friggin beer and hot dog coupons I wanted that day so I went back over to the guy and said "just let me know if/when you want another one." Tony and a couple of other guys followed my lead. He must have had 7 hot dogs and 7 7-ups that day while watching football. He came over later shook my hand and said I was the "real deal" whatever that means.

    A couple of weeks later my lady friend wanted to see Marie Osmond in concert. I could've care less but she loves her so we went. We met some friends for drinks later. She'd went to the restroom and this guy was hitting on her during her walk which isn't all that uncommon. But he followed her all the way into the restroom which is uncommon. He left and then came back in and was making lewd remarks while she is sitting in the stall. She seems shaken when she returns to the table but doesn't want to tell me what just happened. So she told her friend because the guy was sitting at a nearby slot machine staring at her. They didn't want me to know because they were afraid I'd get pissed. Now why would they think that?

    Anyway, her friend finally told me what went down on the promise I not tell or get mad. I smiled and said "I'm not mad". Then proceeded over to the slot machine where I thought he might appreciate my "opinion" as to how he should act in public. Of course, he did not and threatened to go get security if I didn't leave him alone. I suggested he go get security since I knew most of them personally. Evidently, my "little" speech got the attention of two his buddies. I wasn't real worried yet. But the the "hot dog" guy from the sportsbook is standing behind me with one of his rather large buddies. NOW! I'm worried. The two buddies sit back down at HDs prompting and the other guy ran to get security. The guy I'd given hot dog coupons said "no worries man...I'll always have your back." Big friend smiles and says me too. Whew! Big friend is a LOAD!

    Security comes back. My lady friend tells them what happened as she knows the head of security whose mom resides at her healthcare facilty. Irony is the guy that ran to get security is now being carried out with one guard on each limb and he's hollering "what did I do?"

    Everyonce in a while I see big friend walking to his job at the auto parts store, about a 3 mile hike. He says, he missed his bus but was more than likely out of money. So I give him a lift. This is called "networking" in these parts.
    Yeah. But for the the grace if g-d go I.
    A small kindness for a hungry man pays significant dividends.

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