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Thread: How would you attack this game (or would you)?

  1. #1


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    How would you attack this game (or would you)?

    My local store is small. 4 BJ tables and 1 craps table. Often only two tables will be open at a time. All this makes it tough to backcount much (at least for mw). 8D, S17, DAS, Sr, 6.5/8 pen. Three tables are $10 min and one is $25 min. I'm a recreational counter looking to have fun and make a few thousand dollars/year. Longevity is very important to me. I play HiLo with 40 indices. My BR is 20K.

    Here's my current approach. I watch until the count goes slightly positive (TC +0.5) and then jump in. I try to find a fast dealer and a table with 1 or 2 other players. I Wong out at TC -1 and will table hop to some extent as possible. I always play one hand and never split 10's but I make no other camouflage plays. My bet ramp is 10,25,50,100,150. I will only increase by one ramp level at a time when the count goes up, but I will suddenly jump down to my minimum bet any time the count falls to TC 0. I usually play for one hour at a time right after work and I come to the casino in my work clothes (tie). I've never felt any form of heat.

    Any tweaks you'd recommend to my approach? Is this game worth playing? To quote BJA3, p. 160, "...playing all, at the 8-deck game, is an utter waste of time and effort unless, once again, you are lucky enough to find an extraordinary cut with extremely liberal rules." This has me questioning my game.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Cardguy,

    You are a recreational counter, so I will refrain from discussing your count.

    If you have not been barred and you are playing a game with Late Surrender

    and mediocre penetration, by Wonging in and out you have a small advantage.

    I would urge you too take a day and memorize all of the Late Surrender indices

    that you can, at least up to Hi-Lo T.C. +6. You could also try entering games at

    +1 T.C. because you do NOT have an advantage at TC +0.5 and MAY have a small

    or a modest (AVERAGED) advantage at +1.

  3. #3


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    Card guy, I think you should be fine. I have a sim saved on CVCX with the following conditions: HILO Sweet 16 (not sure if I included fab4 in there), Wong out at TC-2 (it's the floor method, so if the TC is -1.5, you Wong out).

    I put in your rules as you stated along with your bankroll, bet ramp. I get an EV of $40/Hr, Std Dev of $540/Hr, and ROR of .4%

    If you get a 7/8 cut, you will get an extra $10/hr.

    Not too bad if you are playing this on your way home from work. Pretty much no expenses.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avincow View Post
    Wong out at TC-2 (it's the floor method, so if the TC is -1.5, you Wong out).
    Actually a TC of -1.00001 should cause the computer to wong out at -2 using flooring to calculate TC.

  5. #5


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    Thanks for the reply. I have learned all the surrender indices between -1 and 5 (9 of them). This actually reminded me of another question. According to the strategy tables in CVBJ (for Wong Old complete HiLo), the surrender index for 7-7 vs 10 is +2 but for H14 vs 10 it is +3. I cannot figure out why these aren't the same. The same table also lists the surrender index for 8-8 vs 10 as 0, while every other source has said the index is at least +1 and maybe as high as +6.

    I appreciate your not crushing me for using a Level 1 count such as HiLo . I'm willing to up my game if I really need to. Would Zen give me a much better return on the game at my store?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardguy View Post
    the surrender index for 7-7 vs 10 is +2 but for H14 vs 10 it is +3. I cannot figure out why these aren't the same.
    You know 2 sevens are out for sure because they are in your hand with any other 14 there is no 7 specific info. With a 14 what card would you most like to draw?
    The reason is because the sim says so but that should give you an idea of why there is a difference.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardguy View Post
    The same table also lists the surrender index for 8-8 vs 10 as 0, while every other source has said the index is at least +1 and maybe as high as +6.
    Splitting and doubling hands may have risk aversion factored in to any decision for the matchup. Some may even include a decision on the value of cover but this is more rare. I use a level 2 system with little correlation to playing 8,8vT. The index for surrender is considerably higher for 8,8vT than 16vT. My guess is 3 or 4 higher than the 16vT index would be about right for Hilo. That would put it at TC 0 or +1 if I remember my Hilo surrender index for 16vT correctly.

  8. #8


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    Think like the crew. How much do they care if you are counting at a lower level. Do not use one approach . If you want to watch others and how the crew react to their ploppy action.Recently I learned a good move from a ploppy.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardguy View Post
    My local store is small. 4 BJ tables and 1 craps table. Often only two tables will be open at a time. All this makes it tough to backcount much (at least for mw). 8D, S17, DAS, Sr, 6.5/8 pen. Three tables are $10 min and one is $25 min. I'm a recreational counter looking to have fun and make a few thousand dollars/year. Longevity is very important to me. I play HiLo with 40 indices. My BR is 20K.

    Here's my current approach. I watch until the count goes slightly positive (TC +0.5) and then jump in. I try to find a fast dealer and a table with 1 or 2 other players. I Wong out at TC -1 and will table hop to some extent as possible. I always play one hand and never split 10's but I make no other camouflage plays. My bet ramp is 10,25,50,100,150. I will only increase by one ramp level at a time when the count goes up, but I will suddenly jump down to my minimum bet any time the count falls to TC 0. I usually play for one hour at a time right after work and I come to the casino in my work clothes (tie). I've never felt any form of heat.

    Any tweaks you'd recommend to my approach? Is this game worth playing? To quote BJA3, p. 160, "...playing all, at the 8-deck game, is an utter waste of time and effort unless, once again, you are lucky enough to find an extraordinary cut with extremely liberal rules." This has me questioning my game.

    Thanks!
    Look for the same eight deck game with deep penetrations. Even with wongin with deeper penetration results in a lower N0.

  10. #10


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    You are not playing all and there is surrender. It is not as bad as you think. Heat is a much greater deciding factor.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    I surrender 8,8vsT at TC+1, with a few twists and turns to it that I won't bother going into.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    Originally Posted by Cardguy
    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    Is this game worth playing? To quote BJA3, p. 160, "...playing all, at the 8-deck game, is an utter waste of time and effort unless, once again, you are lucky enough to find an extraordinary cut with extremely liberal rules." This has me questioning my game.
    Okay, you know that guy on the commercials, "I don't always play 8D but if I do..." I play 6D games, 2D games when I can find them but have only played 8D as a fluke. If I played 8D, the only way to go is to search the hills and valleys for where they go deep enough and you can wong in. The rules are generally horrible at an 8D game at lower stakes to get a higher HE for the smaller amounts wagered. This being the case, there is no such thing as a play all scenario (for me anyway) against an 8D game (should I ever play one). I'm thinking the guy that wrote that in BJA3, DonS. knew what he was talking about! I used to enjoy wonging into 6D games years ago and if you wong in at +2 or so you can't go wrong. Things change and evolve and as they change things up you must come up with the most effective way to deal with it. Situations come and go. If your local game sucks, then maybe you should consider the travel expense to greener pastures where at least you have some half-assed chance of doing okay? In years past if I had a lack of information so walked into a casino that had rules I didn't like I walked right back out. I'm not into playing some shitty 8D, H17 bullshit spit out of an autoshuffler.

    Cardguy is the one questioning playing shitty rules?, not SeriousPlayer. I don't know if Serious ever got serious with shitty rules or not, he also responded is all. 8D, S17, DAS, LS, 6.5/8 pen sounds doable if you wong in.
    Last edited by Tarzan; 11-26-2015 at 12:30 PM.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
    Okay, you know that guy on the commercials, "I don't always play 8D but if I do..." I play 6D games, 2D games when I can find them but have only played 8D as a fluke. If I played 8D, the only way to go is to search the hills and valleys for where they go deep enough and you can wong in. The rules are generally horrible at an 8D game at lower stakes to get a higher HE for the smaller amounts wagered. This being the case, there is no such thing as a play all scenario (for me anyway) against an 8D game (should I ever play one). I'm thinking the guy that wrote that in BJA3, DonS. knew what he was talking about! I used to enjoy wonging into 6D games years ago and if you wong in at +2 or so you can't go wrong. Things change and evolve and as they change things up you must come up with the most effective way to deal with it. Situations come and go. If your local game sucks, then maybe you should consider the travel expense to greener pastures where at least you have some half-assed chance of doing okay? In years past if I had a lack of information so walked into a casino that had rules I didn't like I walked right back out. I'm not into playing some shitty 8D, H17 bullshit spit out of an autoshuffler.

    Cardguy is the one questioning playing shitty rules?, not SeriousPlayer. I don't know if Serious ever got serious with shitty rules or not, he also responded is all. 8D, S17, DAS, LS, 6.5/8 pen sounds doable if you wong in.
    I did not responded with play all approach. What I am saying in my post to the response is look for deeper penetration than 6.5/8 cut off and in addition use wongin technique. Wongin along with deeper penetration will result in even lower N0 that was what I was saying on my previous post.

    Tarzan,

    I though your count was capable of handling 8D, H17 with near prefect computer play. Are you doubting that now?

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