The reality of H17

[Aslan]

Yeah, that seems to be what bean counters do. They chase nickels and give up many dollars in the long run. It never ceases to amaze me how they seem to think everything happens in a vacuum. They just can't seem to understand that the change that makes you that small amount extra can affect the big picture in a very bad way.

Well, I'm a bean counter by profession, although my heart was never in it. For me it was an excellent living. I can attest to the fact that bean counters are shortsighted and should never be put in charge of any company or corporation. Where they are put in charge, they quickly save instant thousands at the price of future millions. Their mindset is not marketing or growing a business; it is cutting expenses and increasing revenues.

All my remarks are generalities; not every bean counter acts this way, and I am living proof. But general as it is, there is a lot of truth to tthree's and others' criticisms of the accounting profession's perspective as to how to run a business.

[Aslan]

I am not totally on board with the anti-h17 sentiment. I felt that way a few years ago when I first encountered h17, but lately I have come to realize that casinos that still offer s17, protect those games by offering lousy penetration. Better penetration can easily overcome the disadvantage of h17. I have seen games in the very same pit, 6 deck s17, 2+ decks cut off vs 6 deck, h17, a deck and quarter to a deck cut off. Also they are more likely to offer surrender on a h17 game. Surrender is big to a counter. The bigger the spread the more advantageous it is. In a sense we are both winning. The casino is getting the bigger advantage that they desire from the public and I am getting deeper penetration and a bigger winrate.

I couldn't agree more. Rules are not a sole criteria for rating a game. Penetration is the game maker. If you can have both, great! there is a saying that charity covers a multitude of sins. So also, good penetration covers a multitude of poor game rules. [Up to a point]

[Shoofly]

Yes, BJ 6:5 is an abomination. But, anyone capable of simple math should realize that. H17 is far more invidious. It doesn’t really sound that bad to a neophyte. But, it has caused vastly more damage to players overall.

While I agree that H17 is a bad rule, I take issue with the statement that H17 has caused vastly more damage to players. I play a lot of H17 because that is the only game offered in my area. My observation is that there are many more player BJ than H17 situations. Also, the 6-5 rule always results in lower payouts to the player. H17 sometimes has no effect (dealer catches a 10), or in a few cases the result is positive for the player (player is stiff against dealer 6, and dealer eventually busts). All in all, while I would love to see H17 eliminated, I would not go so far as to say it is worse than 6-5.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"Bean Counters" focus on the short-term.
Therein lies the nexus of the short-sightedness.

The better the game rules / penetration are,
the more addicted the players become, as they
are far more likely to do just well enough to
accrue a long series of affordable losses; while
continuously contributing to the casino coffers.

The old analogy refers to the squeezing of a lemon.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

About 1/2 deck extra pen makes up for the H17 rule. If I remember the sims right that is for both RoR and EV.

Yes, Tthree is fully correct. Less experienced players are advised to learn the slightly differing Basic Strategy and a handful of adjusted playing indices.

[Anton Chigurh]

"Bean Counters" focus on the short-term.
Therein lies the nexus of the short-sightedness.

This is a systemic problem with current trends in corporate governance and the instantaneous markets, with investors and analysts fixated on short-term rewards. It's why there's pump-and-dump behavior from so many MBAs and CEOs: many know it's stupid, but you have to compete on quarterlies, with little reward for patiently building long-term market presence.

Privately-owned companies have an advantage here, but how many of them are in the gambling industry?

[First Normal Form]

I've never thought average players even noticed or understood H17. I suppose I'm slightly encouraged if AC is moving back to S17 due to consumer demand, as Tthree is reporting. However, I don't mind H17 the way Norm hates it. Maybe I'm deluded. If I ran the casino, I would try to give players all the choices I could, while taking the 'quiet' penalties for myself. They get DAS, RSA, and LS. I get H17 and 2+ decks. When I'm at a table with average players, and the dealer tells one of us we can't soft double, I facepalm (yes, I sometimes try to soft double on purpose). It's never a good moment for the casino. But when a dealer hits a soft 17, it's barely noticed.

A non-scientific survey of all my friends and acquaintances reveals:

1. They are actually surprised at how low the casino edge is at BJ and craps. I think explaining a .1-.2 further increase to them is hopeless. Location and ambiance are much, much more important, and probably should be for their utility functions.

2. To nearly a man/woman, they think that counting six to eight decks is impossible. The second 'question' I always get is, "but they all use six/eight decks now; you can't count that!". That Rain Man movie was powerful. So, if they already think that shoes are unbeatable, I don't know if more decks, auto-shufflers, or the notion that it's a beatable game, is that much of a lure. Consumer decisions based on hitting a soft 17... that's asking a lot.

3. It is hard even to explain the difference between 6:5 and 3:2, even to intelligent people. I learned to count cards when I was 19, so this is ingrained. The population of smart people who are mathphobic is alarming. It takes a long time to explain, only half of them get it, they're bored by the end of the explanation, and it will have absolutely zero impact on their consumer choices next time they're in Las Vegas. "Is this the 6:5 game? How do I tell? What about all the other things I should care about? This is H17, I can see that! But is that more important than 6:5? And this is one deck! That's good; does it offset 6:5? My friends are sitting here!" And that's an unrealistic representation of an internal dialogue that is actually more gut-like. Imagine walking into a purchasing scenario you know little about; if it's the difference between either $50 or $60 you probably make your best guess and move on.

These pennies on the dollar choices are just not important to the average gambler. They don't care; within reason (6:5 strains reason) I'm not sure they should.

[21forme]

Many dealers believe H17 is better than S17. After all, it gives the dealer an extra chance to break a made hand.

Most dealers learn their BJ skills from the players at their tables. They recite ploppy mantra, such as "never split anything that starts with F," etc. I've seen a number of dealer play BJ and have yet to see one that plays close to BS.

[KJ]

Reply to first normal form: (interesting handle btw) You are correct. The average players doesn't understand the difference is or even what additional advantage the casino is invoking. They probably don't understand the numbers at all. But they do understand that they are losing their money faster and experiencing less winning sessions and eventually they get to the point that they say "why should I go and play? I used to occasionally win, now I never do." And it isn't limited to blackjack. Video poker players come to the same conclusion when the casino starts dropping the pay tables and slot players reach the same conclusion when they paybacks % are dropped. They may not understand exactly what those numbers mean, but they know their money isn't going as far as it used to and that they aren't occasionally winning like they used to. Once the patron feels they aren't getting a fair shake, they stop playing or play less frequently than they used to. And once they have lost that confidence, it is pretty hard to get them back.

I have never really been in sales, but isn't there some saying about how it's much harder and more expensive to get a new customer than to keep one that you already have? I think that is a fatal mistake the casino industry began making about a decade ago.

[jaygruden]

KJ, Yes....Actually it is estimated that it's costs nearly twice as much to find a new customer as it does to keep a current customer.

[shadroch]

So an informed player walks into a casino and sees there is nothing but 6-5 SDs and H17 shoes.
Does he boycott the BJ table and go play craps? Baccarat? Three card poker? Slots?
If you want to tilt at windmills, why not request a return to the golden age when a single deck was dealt down to the last card, and split aces could still get a 3-2 BJ?

[shadroch]

KJ, Yes....Actually it is estimated that it's costs nearly twice as much to find a new customer as it does to keep a current customer.

That is in a fully mature market, something casinos are not and never will be in. Each year, hundreds of thousands if not millions of new customers come of age. Casinos do not have to try and attract customers thru good games, they can do it by many other means. How many thousands of rooms and meals did Caesars sell by importing Elton John for months on end. Of them, how many cared about H17?

[Boardwalker]

Which casinos in Atlantic City have S17 at $10 tables?