The reality of H17

[iCountNTrack]

ICNT - You sure you didn't make an error in your sim?

I was under the impression that the difference lessens in + counts and increases in - counts.

And how is that I said different than what I said

[21forme]

And how is that I said different than what I said

Oops. Guess I was looking at it backwards.

Never mind...

[shadroch]

The difference in games is less when a counter has serious money on the table and more when we have minimum bets or are on a bathroom break.

[shadroch]

Anything done to squeeze the patrons in the end is either ruining the casino or there are just enough people to play and keep losing. I really don’t know which happens because I have never seen a controlled study. When I see so many players at CSM tables and H17 and 6/5 BJ, I wonder. The slot machines can be set lower to gouge players and they are still raking in millions.
On the other side…..
I have some friends in Vegas who swear certain casinos pay better and that’s where they go. The word must get around. I think the locals, whether counting or not, know a better BJ game. The El Cortez is going strong with 1 deck good rules. Some of the Coast Casinos get many locals playing their 2 deck games. I doubt they would be making it without them. I doubt many locals go to Harrah’s properties to play. Should a casino allow more wins on their games the word would spread and be like paying for advertising. It seems like a winning strategy.
In other parts of the country where there is no competition the locals have nothing to compare so they never give it much thought, but Vegas locals, overall, are more aware. Can you imagine just 2 tables offered from an 8 deck shoe and the rest are CSM and those 2 tables are 50 minimum? No competition within hours. With competition stores will change and I think we have seen that in AC and Pa.
With all that said my new casino will have all good rules and the slots will be making noise, but some of you all can’t come.

Interestingly enough, I don't think most low rollers at the EC care about the rules. What they do care about is getting comped meals for their $20 buy-in and getting tickets to the Saturday morning raffles.

[Koz84]

Anything done to squeeze the patrons in the end is either ruining the casino or there are just enough people to play and keep losing. I really don’t know which happens because I have never seen a controlled study. When I see so many players at CSM tables and H17 and 6/5 BJ, I wonder. The slot machines can be set lower to gouge players and they are still raking in millions.
On the other side…..
I have some friends in Vegas who swear certain casinos pay better and that’s where they go. The word must get around. I think the locals, whether counting or not, know a better BJ game. The El Cortez is going strong with 1 deck good rules. Some of the Coast Casinos get many locals playing their 2 deck games. I doubt they would be making it without them. I doubt many locals go to Harrah’s properties to play. Should a casino allow more wins on their games the word would spread and be like paying for advertising. It seems like a winning strategy.
In other parts of the country where there is no competition the locals have nothing to compare so they never give it much thought, but Vegas locals, overall, are more aware. Can you imagine just 2 tables offered from an 8 deck shoe and the rest are CSM and those 2 tables are 50 minimum? No competition within hours. With competition stores will change and I think we have seen that in AC and Pa.
With all that said my new casino will have all good rules and the slots will be making noise, but some of you all can’t come.

Competition is definitely key to having access to beatable games. My local casino is the only one within the state, anything close requires air travel. When it opened in 1994 it was 8 deck, S17, 3:2, DA2, DAS, SPL3, RSA, NS, OBBO with $5 minimums. Now it is littered with 6 deck CSM games offering H17, 6:5, D9-11, SPL3, nRSA, NS, OBBO from $5 right through to $100 tables, yes, $100 tables. There are still pits with shoe games offering 3:2 BJ, but the rules are nowhere near as good when it first opened. Even the best game in the casino, only accessible by top tier members, has doubling restrictions imposed and no surrender.

[21forme]

The worse casino I ever saw in terms of BJ games (besides Harrahs joints) was a small Indian casino near Four Corners. It was about 2 hours from the next nearest casino. They had 4 BJ tables. Two were 6D CSM and the other two were DD 6:5.

[bigplayer]

Start at 0 and work your way out. The difference is larger for negative TC until the sample size gets small due to extreme TC values.

Ignoring the counts on the extreme where the SE is high and sample is small, it looks like that at around +6 or so the difference between h17 and s17 is more like 0.1% (ballpark) and at -6 it's around -0.3%....I think you'd have to have the max sample size possible to really know for sure at the extreme counts (or maybe set penetration for 5.5 decks so that more extreme counts are part of the sample.

[Automatic Monkey]

Ignoring the counts on the extreme where the SE is high and sample is small, it looks like that at around +6 or so the difference between h17 and s17 is more like 0.1% (ballpark) and at -6 it's around -0.3%....I think you'd have to have the max sample size possible to really know for sure at the extreme counts (or maybe set penetration for 5.5 decks so that more extreme counts are part of the sample.

It depends quite a bit on the count too. If you use the Mentor system tags counting the 9 and discounting the ace helps H17 catch up to S17 very nicely. LS also makes H17 better because you are walking away from a lot of dealer aces, doesn't matter what he catches after you surrender.

[Aslan]

The problem with casinos is they want their cake and eat it, too. That's why all this tomfoolery, first trying this strategy, then that-- CSM, ASM, handshuffle, H17, S17, 3:2, 6:5, DAS, NDAS, LS, NLS, deep pen, shallow pen... sometimes, it's maddening!

[Aslan]

Yeah, that seems to be what bean counters do. They chase nickels and give up many dollars in the long run. It never ceases to amaze me how they seem to think everything happens in a vacuum. They just can't seem to understand that the change that makes you that small amount extra can affect the big picture in a very bad way.

I was talking with a surveillance type just tonight and he too complained with the direction the bean counters are taking the casinos. No foresight. Save a few dollars now in the short run and sell the business down the drain for the long term! How can casinos be so shortsighted as to put bean counters in charge? It's frustrating on both sides of the fence.