anybody know what count you would need for a side bet getting 10:1 on a push using hi lo?
http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/8/
Go about 1/4 of the way down the page and there are two different versions.
Tie - Version 1
Caesars Palace in Las Vegas at one time offered a side bet on a tie at two of their blackjack tables. If the player and dealer do tie the side bet pays 10 to 1. The player may bet no more than 50% of their original blackjack wager on the side bet. If the player splits he must also split the side bet. If the player doubles, he does not double the side bet. For the analysis I assumed for the following blackjack rules:
- Winning blackjack pays 3 to 2.
- Six decks.
- Dealer hits soft 17.
- Double after split allowed.
- No surrender.
- No re-splitting aces.
The following table shows the proper basic strategy assuming the maximum side bet is played and the rules above.
tiesidebet_h17.jpg
Assuming the rules and strategy above, I show an overall house edge of 0.24%, which is the expected player win divided by the initial 1.5 units bet. If a winning blackjack paid 6-5, then the house edge would be 1.15%.
Tie - Version 2
In August 2010 I noticed another version of side betting on a tie in blackjack at Harrah's Las Vegas. Unlike version 1, where all ties pay 10 to 1, at Harrah's you could bet on all six possible ties individually, or on a low or a high tie. As I recall, the rules were:
- Six decks
- Blackjack pays 6 to 5.
- Dealer hits soft 17
- Double after split allowed.
- No surrender.
- No re-splitting aces.
- If player doubles, he does not double the tie wagers.
- If player splits, he does not double the tie wagers. Any tie wagers will be resolved based on the first hand played out.
- An ace and 10 after splitting aces is considered 21 points for purposes of both the blackjack and tie wagers.
- If the player re-splits, then all tie wagers are lost.
The layout has betting circles for 17, 18, 19, and LS (left side) tie wagers on the left of the betting circle for the blackjack wagers. The other four tie wagers are on the right side. The player may bet up to half his blackjack wager on the sum of the four left side tie wagers, and likewise up to half on on the right side.
If the player does bet a tie, it significantly changes the strategy. The player will do more hitting, and less of everything else. There is a separate strategy for each tie wager. I won't bother to publish them unless the game gets a significant number of placements.
I spent all day trying to analyze this one, but the doubling and splitting rules made it too difficult. So I'm quoting below pay table #4 from the game owner's web site, blackjacktie.com, with permission.
Tie (version 2) House Edge
TIE WAGER PAYS HOUSE EDGE 17 50 2.41% 18 45 5.79% 19 50 3.67% 20 25 8.47% 21 125 10.85% BJ 400 7.18% LS (17, 18, 19) 15 8.07% RS (20, 21, BJ) 20 9.39%
Last edited by BigJer; 10-28-2015 at 05:04 PM.
My Ability in Blackjack is a Gift from God!!
Perhaps this will help.
https://www.blackjackincolor.com/truecount5.htm
Push percentage must reach 10% to make the side bet profitable with normal strategy. You will probably adjust normal strategy to hit more stiffs which will change this graph some.
"Push percentage must reach 10% to make the side bet profitable with normal strategy."
If a bet pays off at 10 TO 1 odds, then if you win it 10% of the time, you don't break even; rather you win at a 10% rate. To be profitable, the push percentage has to reach one out of 11 or 9.09%.
Don
I had to think about that for a while. It didn't make sense at first. (I had three years of Math and Physics in college BTW. Lol.) That's right since you're winning one out of ten times. Which means you are losing 9 out of the 10 so so get paid 10X: but again you have lost "only" 9.Originally Posted by DSchles
My Ability in Blackjack is a Gift from God!!
Usually the limit on this bet is half of your original bet. That would be enough to warrant some play deviatons that increase push probability like standing on A7 vs 2,9,T,A and higher hit/stand indices in general. Eyeballing the graph on blackjackincolor, it looks like you can frequently get a significant advantage.
I know of this bet which you speak, I saw it and got really excited, came up with a lot of strategy and toyed with various card counting tags. I found for whatever reason HILO worked the best of the ones i tried. Interesting things i learned about this game:
1. The 7s are weighted heavily in this game.
2. strategy deviation is extremely valuable, in fact, you can surpass breaking even with a flat bet and only stategy deviation, although the return is barely above 100%
3. You can obtain an advantage in positive counts, AND negetive counts when using the strategy deviations.
4. There is 1 mistake on the WoO basic stategy.
In case you arnt aware, this bet is not an independent side bet like others, it is tied to the outcome of the hand, and as such, there is a different basic playing strategy, as well as different indexes. There is even an extra playing decision to consider.
Message me and i can tell you what I know.
You have the option to split with an additional side wager on the newly created hand, or to split without placing an additional side wager. The "special split" can be utilized to improve the return on the game by splitting the hand without placing an additional side wager.
The idea of this bet being profitable based solely upon the probibility of the push assumes that basic playing strategy is the best playing strategy.
Because the outcome of this wager is tied to the outcome of the hand as it relateds to the dealer. Suddenly a PUSH is the most desireable outcome for any hand.
There is an improved basic strategy you can use when placing the side wager that will reduce the house edge to less than that of the house edge without the side wager.
Further, there are strategy deviations for the improved strategy based upon a card counting system that will result in an ellemination of the house advantage entirely.
Sounds exciting right? The max bet is 25 dollars....then it all falls apartIt was worth about 45/hour on a 4 deck shoe if you exclusively back counted it though, i dont think the 4 deck game with this bet exists anymore.
To sum all of that up, if you play the imrproved strategy you can lay down the side bet at TC 0 or higher, but only if you are playing the improved strategy. which involves CC indexes for both regular blackjack hands, and for hands involving the tie bet because when you split, there is the ability to split into one hand with a side bet and one hand without. and beating the game at TC 0 requires full use of all indexes.
The edge is really high at moderate counts, it approaches 10-15% advantage at really high counts though to capitolise you need to use the imrpoved playing strategy or at least the basic strategy for the tie bet.
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