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Thread: Professional and semi professional blackjack solo players DO use Hi Lo in 2015

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    Professional and semi professional blackjack solo players DO use Hi Lo in 2015

    Professional and semi professional blackjack solo players DO use Hi Lo in 2015 and beyond.

    Criteria: loose terms I've set, can make amendments.

    -straight up counting (no advanced technique such as tracking, sequencing.
    -100k+ a year net profit, EV may be higher.
    **as a testament to this, I'm personally having an atrocious and humbling year performing about 1/3 EV, battled down 300+ hour losing streaks, multiple losing streaks of 50-100k and I'm over this 100k mark of blackjack net profit.
    -200 hours+ EV a year.

    I haven't been in the community long and my sample size and network is small so take it for what it's worth, but I personally do know of 8 individuals who meet these criteria currently, I would be the 9th. Many of these are personal friends of mine as well and I'm certain that these criteria hold true for them and they make real money doing it. There are many more using Hi Lo who make less, maybe 10-50k a year.

    I respect that there are other opinions out there, using different count systems etc. but let's not kid ourselves here, it CAN be done grassroots style.

    1.) YES, you can make a ton of $$ yearly straight up counting using Hi Lo
    2.) NO, it ain't easy. It takes tremendous DISCIPLINE and PERSEVERANCE to do so. It doesn't take a lot of training, everyone can learn a counting system, throw a betting scheme together, and put together a starting bankroll, MOST fail due to poor bankroll management, lack of discipline or simply get knocked out by bad variance. This happens regardless of which counting system you use. For example, during my losing streak I had multiple instances of 3 or 4 dealer backdoor BJs in a row with max bets, and or had garbage hands in double digit true counts (stiffs or basically anything below 20) vs. of course dealer pat 20- no one can control for this, not even the best counting systems.

    I NEVER read a single blackjack book in my life, not one. I've skimmed a few pages here and there and used a few appendixes or glossaries, that's it. Shout out to Norm's software as well, I would endorse it without question and I use it frequently. Besides this, I've mostly relied on internet info, lurked forums and just network with people. If I had to do it again, would I recommend this method? Probably not, but I'm also a quick learner and an opportunist and believer of maximizing the opportunity now and not wasting time powering through endless stacks of literature. It might be the goal of some to learn as much theory as possible, but not mine. I ONLY want to stack the cash. Let's be realistic, if I wanted theory, I'd go back to my professonal biomedical job (where I also have a lot of success) and actually do something with a meaningful contribution to society.

    Everything on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt. There's a lot of pretend players on here, washed up has beens, low stakes know it alls, insert whatever synonym, in addition to trolls and mentally unstable people who would likely meet DSM V criteria (note: Autism spectrum disorders including Asperger's have been revamped in this edition and are not a mental illness). Nevertheless, there are legit players too, and ones who play currently in the most adverse blackjack conditions. Use your own judgement and critical thinking skills. Forge your own path, but the life of a pro blackjack AP ain't easy and shouldn't be taken lightly.

    PS. Thanks for everyone's support during my absence, I especially appreciate those who contacted me via email and I'm always looking to expand my network and exchange information about games.

    Cheers,
    MH

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I am sure lots of professional level counters use Hilo successfully.
    Are there lots of pros that use Hilo? Sure there are!
    Well at least this is a start. Completely contradicts one of Flash's statements that "it is a falsehood that professional players use Hi-lo". I know you are not responsible for what Flash says, but it is good (and important) to see this acknowledged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    But there are also lots of pros that reached the point to get the benefits from complexity and would not even consider Hilo.
    Do you really know 'lots' of professional players, other than maybe one or two on this site that play a complex count? Keep in mind the term 'professional'.... makes their living from blackjack play. I find that hard to believe. I would love to see some names, but I know we can't do that and in fairness you would run up against some of the same issue I have that these player just don't want to weigh in and many don't want to even have their names (or handles) used in this discussion.

    These comments are not meant as a challenge, it is just I have a really hard time believing that you know "lots" of professional players playing complex counts. Of the 'professional' players that I network and talk to privately, and I won't say it is "lots" but its upwards of a dozen , nearly all use Hi-lo. And most of the other 'professional' players that I know of, that have revealed what count they use, it was Hi-lo. Not all, but definitely most. Maybe that small sample size of a couple dozen 'professional' players has influenced me to draw the wrong conclusion, but I don't think so.
    Last edited by KJ; 10-28-2015 at 09:20 AM.

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    KJ didn't you mention in the past that you used RPC for a few months and then went back to using Hi-Lo? Refresh my memory, why did you go back to using a Lv. 1 counting technique? Knowing that you have used that technique in the past, could you go back to using RPC on the turn of a dime knowing it has been some time since you've probably takin that method into the casino? Knowing that your a professional player I would expect a player like yourself to be able to do that knowing how long you've been in the game.
    Last edited by Blitzkrieg; 10-28-2015 at 09:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
    KJ didn't you mention in the past that you used RPC for a few months and then went back to using Hi-Lo? Refresh my memory, why did you go back to using a Lv. 1 counting technique? Knowing that you have used that technique in the past, could you go back to using RPC on the turn of a dime knowing it has been some time since you've probably takin that method into the casino? Knowing that your a professional player I would expect a player like yourself to be able to do that knowing how long you've been in the game.
    I started with Hi-lo. After several years, I bought into the 'hype' that a higher level count was worth XXX more, so I decided to learn a level 2 count. I did a little research and decided that for a player playing almost exclusively shoe games, as I was at the time (Atlantic City), that RPC was a good fit. So, I stopped and relearned another count. It did take a little time for me to switch. Sure it was easy to play a level 2 count when I was thinking about it (even I am not that stupid). But you have to play it not even thinking about and sometimes my mind would just revert back to hi-lo that I knew so well, when I wasn't thinking about it. But after a couple months, I got it and was playing RPC effectively, which I did every day for 18 months.

    But after 18 months, it just felt...and this is very unscientific, but it felt like there was no real difference. Further more I could not walk by a table, take a glance and I mean a glance of a fraction of a second and have an accurate count of what was on the felt with 4 players and the dealer as I could with hi-lo. I was also starting to employ another technique that was not as compatible with a level 2 count (not multiple tables). I talked with a few other professional level players that I knew at the time, and decided that all things considered, Hi-lo, was more beneficial to me and would continue to be as per the direction that conditions were moving (and have continued to move). It would allow for additional techniques, one that I was just beginning to play at the time, that just are more compatible with Hi-lo. It just so happens that one of those additional techniques, which I didn't envision at the time, was tracking multiple tables, which presented itself several years later when I relocated to a place where fairly empty tables were in abundance.

    One thing that I did consider at the time is that playing Hi-lo would open the door for team play, should I decide to go that route. Despite the fact that I had several nice offers and opportunities to join a few really successful teams, I never went that route. But the option was there and that is a big part of my argument. There are other opportunities and options available that are more compatible with a simple count.


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    Nice to see you posting again MH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Well I have people coming to me for advice or a review of their own versions of playing that are not what most use along with those that have helped me with more advanced counting techniques so my sampling has that bias.
    And these ARE professional players? (as per your earlier statement). I mean no offense, but am I to believe that "professional players", who make their living playing blackjack are coming to you, a part-time player and up until recently an admittedly low level part-time player for a review of their play?

    If we are being honest here and I think you are, do you "know" or know of, any 'professional' players other than Flash and tarzan if he plays professionally that are playing the kind of complex methods you have been speaking of?

    Because even out of the few professional player that I know that do not use Hi-lo, they all are playing a pretty simple level 2 count along the lines of Zen or RPC (which few use anymore because of Zen). No professional players that I know of, are taking "more complex" to the level that you guys are. And that's what I have been saying all along. You small group here are a very minority view in the blackjack community among professional players. Do you have anything that suggests otherwise?

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    KJ, you sound like an underdog politician begging for support on some dubious platform.

    Finding another outspoken Card Counter who shares your obsession with Hi-Lo proves nothing.

    How about we simply agree to cease and desist in this eternal debate ?

    I am certain that there are some meaningful things that the both of us can share in our posts !

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    Well, I'm a green player for sure, and really only count part time, but I will say that after I got down the Hi-Lo count I've found it has been easy to utilize and perform effectively. This is a way for me to pay back school loans, and in just over 250 hours of play I've made my expected EV.

    I've began using other AP techniques, and people always speak of the "swings" with hi-lo, but I must admit, these other AP techniques have given me one hell of a ride in comparison, even though the expected edge is significantly higher. I guess I'll chalk this up to small(er) sample size, and variance.

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    moses watches General Hospital on T.V.

    R O T F L M A O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I guess you didn't get the not so subtle post by Flash to you about being humble before someone that is a math wiz etc and being grateful for their help and insight rather than arguing a point with no leg to stand on.
    Touché et Voici mon ami, et al.

    De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est !

    Vox Populi !

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    moses,

    That was anything but a Strike. It was low and outside.

    Your post was just cryptic. What were you alluding to ?

  12. #12
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    PLEASE, discussions of who is or is not a pro are completely useless.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    KJ, you sound like an underdog politician begging for support on some dubious platform.

    Finding another outspoken Card Counter who shares your obsession with Hi-Lo proves nothing.

    How about we simply agree to cease and desist in this eternal debate ?

    I am certain that there are some meaningful things that the both of us can share in our posts !
    I don't know why you had to make such a comment as to that underdog politician things. I think we are having a fairly pleasant conversation here today, with much less emotion and screaming and yelling than usual on all sides, with some points being made all around.

    But as for ceasing the eternal debate, I made a similar proposal (to you specifically) several days ago, in a now closed thread (I believe), but there was no response from you, so I am all for that.

    In the spirit of co-existence and being more accepting of the other side or at least less confrontational, might I ask you to reconsider the statement that "Hi-lo is an ultra weak count"?

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