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Thread: Have the BR rules changed?

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    Have the BR rules changed?

    In various books and archives, we read about BR requirements but the only consideration is the level you play. For example, you hear that you need so many max bets to play a $10 minimum 6 deck game or a $25 DD game or to play Black.

    however, on another post about a mediocre BJ 6 deck game, the implication from respected posters postings is that the rules and SCORE and Pen determine the amount of BR needed to beat an increasingly typical poor SCORE game.

    what is that BR, for example on a 6Deck, $25 game with no mId shoe entry, H17, No Surrender, 1.5 deck cut off game or a $25 DD game with double 9-11, no double after split, split only once game with a 75% game?

    Where many any of us part timers play, the pen is okay but the rules are poor and there is little heat (because the casinos don't feel that the game can be beaten). Some say they would never play such a bad game and others say that beating the games require a huge BR as variance gets high.

    does this mean that BR considerations require more than just the size of the unit or max bet?

  2. #2
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    As a "rule of thumb" a sufficient Bankroll is from 800 to 1,500 "units"
    "Max Bets" varies widely, so that metric is misleading in this context.
    I am presenting a range of bankroll sizes, because table conditions
    (rules, penetration, etc.) vary so very widely.
    For a great game, with a high SCORE 800 units would be fine.
    A bad game, with a low SCORE as much as 1,500 units is O.K.

    To answer ZeeBabar's question, I am suggesting 1,200+ units.

    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 10-22-2015 at 12:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    As a "rule of thumb" a sufficient Bankroll is from 800 to 1,500 "units"
    "Max Bets" varies widely, so that metric is misleading in this context.
    I am presenting a range of bankroll sizes, because table conditions
    (rules, penetration, etc.) vary so very widely.
    For a great game, with a high SCORE 800 units would be fine.
    A bad game, with a low SCORE as much as 1,500 units is O.K.

    To answer ZeeBabar's question, I am suggesting 1,200+ units.

    thanks. Are you suggesting 1200 units for a 6 deck game or a DD game or both? I am assuming that DD game would require less. 1200 units of minimum $25 bets would be $30k

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    This is the wrong way to think about it...go to cvcx get the optimum betting strategy for the game you play...if you lose lower bets if you win raise them.

  5. #5


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    I'm not sure anyone here has "gone about it" the "proper" way. That's because there is no proper way. Even when you know everything about a given game, and you have chosen a bet spread with which you are comfortable, you still can't enunciate a "correct" BR until you specify the ROR that you are willing to accept.

    To standardize the SCORE comparisons, I used initial full Kelly, without bet resizing as the BR fluctuates, which yields a ROR of 13.5%. To a pro with a million-dollar bank and the intention of making a living at the game for the foreseeable future, accepting such a high ROR would be ludicrous, and most wouldn't dream of playing a higher Kelly fraction than a half or a third.

    So, until you understand these concepts and can express your thoughts with respect to these parameters, the question is quite meaningless.

    Don

    P.S. It also matters considerably whether the proposed bankroll is replenishable or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    "Are you suggesting 1200 units for a 6 deck game or a DD game or both? I am assuming that DD game would require less. 1200 units of minimum $25 bets would be $30k"
    Your 6 deck game and your DD games have similar (poor) e.v.'s but the DD game requires a smaller bankroll.

    I will modify the above by saying 1,000 units for the DD game and 1,200 units for the six deck H17 game.

    Note that it is ONLY the deep pen' (assuming you are really getting 75%) that makes the DD game playable at all.

    Have you taken the time to simply watch a sample of dealers and

    COUNT the number of cards played before the cut card appears ?
    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 10-22-2015 at 02:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    Your 6 deck game and your DD games have similar (poor) e.v.'s but the DD game requires a smaller bankroll.

    I will modify the above by saying 1,000 units for the DD game and 1,200 units for the six deck H17 game.

    Note that it is ONLY the deep pen' (assuming you are really getting 75%) that makes the DD game playable at all.

    Have you taken the time to simply watch a sample of dealers and

    COUNT the number of cards played before the cut card appears ?
    i am aware that the dealer instruction is to cut off one half deck (75%). I have also noted that if someone has a huge pile of chips or are betting Orange or more than $500, they will say something to the dealer or signal something and the dealer starts going to about 60%.

    number of players can vary from 1-4. I have been walking away when more than 3 spots are being played.

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    Doesn't a replenishable BR vs. a non-replenishable BR have a a lot to do with it? I mean you can have a 3K BR and play $25 tables with a very high ROR. The odds of you going bust is very high but if you can easily be back in business in a week or two, who cares?

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    Quote Originally Posted by winnawinna View Post
    "who cares?"
    A player should care. Otherwise, your hypothetical player is likely to

    experience a long string of 3K losses. "Replenishable Bankrolls" are

    for common "gamblers" and just mean that the player will not wind up living

    in a cardboard box under a highway overpass, collecting discarded pop bottles.


    All that someone does by applying such a concept is saying that I am willing to

    (frequently) lose thus and such an amount. An Advantage Player does NOT do that.

    This is similar to a so-called "trip bankroll". These are mere constructs and no more.
    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 10-24-2015 at 03:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    but the only consideration is the level you play
    ZeeBabar if you buy and read chapter 8 (which I am sure you won't) of "Blackjack Attack Playing the Pros' Way", you'll find formulas, tables and charts so you'll learn more about risk of ruin and capital requirements than you ever wanted to know. I read and study constantly and it is beyond my belief that a person wouldn't pick up a single book to advance their knowledge. It never ceases to amaze me!
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

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    As ZeeBabar won't (or can't comfortably) read or buy books,

    then why imagine that he'll buy Software or read a User's Manual

    I think that English is his "second language" which may be part of the problem.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    thanks. Are you suggesting 1200 units for a 6 deck game or a DD game or both? I am assuming that DD game would require less. 1200 units of minimum $25 bets would be $30k
    First, when people wrote unit, it could mean small unit (your minimal bet when TC is negative, most likely table minimal) or big unit (your max bet). For bankroll requirement, people are more comfortable to have 200 max bets as bankroll, although 100 max bets BR is doable for some AP. Assuming you are spreading 8 to 1 at $25 DD game, the comfortable BR is $40K. That is 200 max bets(big units) or 1600 small units.

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    BJGenius007
    ,

    The correct and common meaning of "unit", in this context, is a C.C.'s minimum bet.

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