See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 58

Thread: Back to playing conditions........rules. Just what do YOU consider a playable game?

  1. #1
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Sooner State
    Posts
    1,477


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    Back to playing conditions........rules. Just what do YOU consider a playable game?

    Over time, I have noticed a lot of posts on "this game is playable" "this game is sheeeeet". "These are good rules", etc. And of course, there is no agreement and it seems to change over time. In my personal experience, playing conditions have WORSENED over time as to the "rules". H17 more than S17. No RSA except for a very, very few. No DAS on any pitch games, etc. But there are still some places that have better rules. Just trying to get a feel from this board as to the games around the country without looking at CBJN because I want YOUR opinion.

    This was posted on one thread:

    BJ pays 3-2
    All 6D shoe dealt games
    Double on any two cards and double after split
    Split up to 4 hands
    Split aces once - one card dealt
    Dealer hits on soft 17
    No surrender
    +3 side bet available
    Dealer cuts off approx. 1.5 decks in shoe - will vary by dealer from 1-2 decks so penetration can vary from 83%-66%

    This seems to be pretty standard shoe rules at most places I play or am able to play when traveling. Here, the rules are a bit better. Still S17. Some houses still offer surrender. Not many. So I think my shoe game is more playable.

    But I saw two opinions on the above conditions. One calling them crap. One saying it was playable. I'm sure penetration is a factor.

    Query: Just WHAT do you consider a minimum playable shoe game? What rules? Seems that it depends upon what part of country you are in, I guess. But to call these bad rules............when they appear pretty standard to me makes me think a little.

    I'm purposely just trying to get a feel from the board WHAT games you will actually play.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #2


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Honestly, it really depends. There is no cut off point of "playable" and "not." Penetration is the most important factor in a blackjack game. The game could have crappy rules (8D H17 - .66% HE) but if it's dealt 90% penetration, then it becomes a playable game. On the flip side you could have good rules (6D S17 LS - .36% HE) and they could cut 3 decks off and make this absolutely NOT playable... To go to the extreme you could have El Cortez's 1D game (.18% HE) but if they only ever dealt 1 hand and then shuffled, again, it's not playable.

    Overall, at least for me, "in general" I consider playable games to be anything less than .5% (with 'average' 75% PEN), so that I can up my bet at TC +1. Every game is its own unique snow flake though, and must be evaluated individually =P.

    *The game you provided above has a house edge of .64%. When you're getting the 1D cut off (83% PEN) this game becomes playable. When you're getting the 2D cut off (66% PEN) this game is not playable. When it's "average" at about 1.5 decks (75% PEN) then it's really a player opinion. Some pro's only play better games and wouldn't touch that. However, if you're part time and that's 20 minutes from your house, well then it might be better to play it and you can log a lot more hands/hours because it's close to home. PEN truly is king though. The reason being when you have shitty PEN your frequencies will be much worse. This means you'll see good counts less often and when you do, you'll need to bet more (aka a bigger spread) to capitalize on the good situations. This will shoot your variance and Standard Deviations way up because it's going to jack up your average bet. What makes it unplayable is with such a high spread you often need huge bankrolls that most people just don't have, and thus they'll bust out. So in essence, the low penetration games are not playable, regardless of the rules.
    Last edited by Romes; 10-22-2015 at 08:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Eastern U S A
    Posts
    6,830


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    For me to play a H17 game I want LS (and preferably RSA)
    ~or~

    it must have DEEP penetration and a reasonably tolerable level of heat.

    Do not be an amateur whoo plays whatever local game is available !

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    3rd rock from Sol, Milky Way Galaxy
    Posts
    14,158


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Generally a playable game has a SCORE of at least 50 which means a n0 of 20K or less. That is the traditional definition of SCORE where everything is held constant at the standards and only the optimal bets change as you bet the optimal standard spread for the conditions. That said if you are well BR'ed you can use c-SCORE instead of SCORE. That means you can spread as much as you can get away with and bet optimally for that spread. You can also play to whatever RoR you want, basically all the standards no longer apply. You still want a low n0 but if you have a large enough BR you are willing to accept watching huge amounts move into the dealer's chip tray to get big action in with little to no heat. The slash and burn casino players love a tolerant joint with a not so good game. They can get a lot more play in before they get their walking papers. So basically what is playable depends on your BR, style of play and risk tolerance. It is a personal decision that should be made with a well informed idea of what to expect when you play various conditions. The standard is a SCORE of 50. When you start talking c-SCORE at tolerant casinos the picture of what is playable changes dramatically. A longevity player probably uses a really strong count and a spread that would not work well with a simpler system while attacking better games. A simple count player needs to spread more and is easier to detect so they tend not to last long at good games. Their way fits the slash and burn style better and that requires a huge BR by comparison.

    So your BR, risk tolerance, your system, the casino's spread and top bet tolerance and your style of attack (longevity vs slash and burn) determines what is playable for you. You may have noticed the big playing pros asked questions about table limits that indicated spread tolerance or max spread possible was what they were asking about and also max bet limits indicating that they were interested in how well they handle big action. No doubt they have huge BR's and would define a playable game quite differently than someone with a small BR. To a small BR player a top concern may be the min bet because that will define how big they can spread. Other issues are table crowding and NMSE for reasons of wonging in or keeping a great count from being diluted as people jump in mid-shoe. Believe it or not NMSE can be a great rule. It keeps others from wonging in or otherwise joining mid-shoe in a great count and means they must shuffle if you leave a heads up game. Either that or hope you will come back and continue playing the shoe you left. Your view on NMSE depends on your style of play. So what makes a game playable varies from player to player.

  5. #5
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Eastern U S A
    Posts
    6,830


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    "Generally a playable game has a SCORE of 50 ..."
    It must be noted that a SCORE of 50 is NOT a mathematically determined metric.

    It means a Hi-Lo player betting optimally, and with a $10,000 bankroll would profit.
    by $50 an hour on average; so that by playing (accurately) 20 hrs. a week would
    (theoretically) "earn" $50,000 / annum.

    That is viewed as a reasonable goal to live as a lower middle class single person.

    My point is that a SCORE of 35 or 40 or 45 may be fine for you.
    Y M M V
    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 11-13-2015 at 10:41 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    3rd rock from Sol, Milky Way Galaxy
    Posts
    14,158


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    My point is that a SCORE of 35 or 40 or 45 may be fine for you or I. Y M M V
    SCORE of 35 and you are getting close to a n0 of 30K. I may be fine with a n0 like that but I sure want a n0 of 20K or less. A low n0 is what makes it easier to come out ahead on any given trip. Or over shorter periods of time. That is more my concern than the hourly.

    n0 = 1,000,000/SCORE

    So when you decide you are fine with a lower SCORE you are saying you are comfortable with longer, deeper and more frequent downswings. Nothing wrong with that with the BR and constitution to outlast the swings. If you are trying to make a living off the game minimizing n0 is certainly a concern if you have a need to continually draw from your BR.

  7. #7


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    So basically what is playable depends on your BR, style of play and risk tolerance. It is a personal decision that should be made with a well informed idea of what to expect when you play various conditions. The standard is a SCORE of 50. When you start talking c-SCORE at tolerant casinos the picture of what is playable changes dramatically. A longevity player probably uses a really strong count and a spread that would not work well with a simpler system while attacking better games. A simple count player needs to spread more and is easier to detect so they tend not to last long at good games. Their way fits the slash and burn style better and that requires a huge BR by comparison.
    Tthree, In your above example you refer to tolerant casinos and attacking better games, and continue with A simple count player needs to spread more and is easier to detect so they tend not to last long at good games. Their way fits the slash and burn style better and that requires a huge BR by comparison. Staying with your example, I interpret the term tolerant casinos as accepting a certain level of play, as in red chip play or maybe even green chip action pending on the casinos tolerance. Of course spreads play a factor, but since your example is also based on good games why does anyone need an outrageous spread? Maybe in this situation you should also spread up a few more units, if the casino is tolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    To a small BR player a top concern may be the min bet because that will define how big they can spread. Other issues are table crowding and NMSE for reasons of wonging in or keeping a great count from being diluted as people jump in mid-shoe.
    I agree 100% with the first sentence. As far as table crowding, of which I consider extremely important, I will break it down a little further. I believe there are two parts to the term.

    #1 New players are thinking the obvious how many people are playing at the table. Hands per hour yes extremely important.I consider number #2 even more important.

    #2 How does the casino play the crowd? I'll define this as what does the casinos do in slow off hours times? Will the casino still open most tables because dealers are on a regular schedule? If you can find this situation this is a great time to play.
    Last edited by BoSox; 10-22-2015 at 06:14 PM.

  8. #8


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    A lot of these crap games you can spread min to 2x half max leave every negative shoe and they won't care. The game mentioned would suck unless you can do that. If you can it would be ok.

  9. #9
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Sooner State
    Posts
    1,477


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Thanks for responses guys. So spread; tolerance; become again part of whether or not the game is "truly" playable. Which here locally, red or green is usually no issue; black would be. We get some wild, wild spread limits if you use $5 as your unit. Not so much at higher betting levels.

    I appreciate your response Zen Flash about SCORE in a "monetary" sense. That makes it more understandable as to "getting a feel" for the money you could win. And IF I understand SCORE correctly, it also assumes that hourly rate is with $100 units or per $100 bet? So adjust accordingly as to your units? The annual income analogy helps paint another easily understood picture of how to compare your potential results.

    And T-Three.........that adds to the equation that you need to understand HOW many hands you would need to play to achieve results close to the expected return.

    But still............are there really THAT many games (shoe games that is) with rules that are THAT much different than the standard or example I first listed in the beginning post? Do they vary THAT much around the country any longer? I remember..........ok, ok......I'm older than some maybe...........the good ol' days in Vegas when the rules varied MUCH more than they do now from decks to surrender to RSA to times you could re-split any hands. Shoot for awhile Ceasars (before assimilation by Harrah's or immolation, whichever term is accurate) used to be one of the few places that offered surrender and most people didn't seem to know what it meant. Maybe some of you guys remember when they gave you a chip or token to put on your bet to show EIS that you were surrendering. Now with the mergers, sure seems the rules have become more "homogeneous" AND NOT to anyone's benefit. Including theirs because the hold seems to be decreasing % wise.

    I guess I'm also asking IF the games are becoming (or have become) the same............then being a counter.......understanding penetration or other factors............IS THE ONLY WAY THE GAME WILL BE PLAYABLE. I'm truly not trying to be philosophical only. Just wondering if the game is TOTALLY going the way of the other games in the casinos.............without some 'different' AP means..........NO game is playable in the sense of being able to use your intelligence to win in the long run.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Eastern U S A
    Posts
    6,830


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    "IF I understand SCORE correctly, it also assumes that hourly rate is with $100 units or per $100 bet?"
    SCORE assumes a $10,000 bankroll and "Full Kelly Betting"
    So ... with the bankroll hovering around $10,000 and Hi-Lo,
    with (common rules) an player advantage would be seen at
    TC +2 (of approx. 0.5%) so the bet would be $50.
    Continual altering of the size of one's bet is required.
    If, e.g. $4,000 was lost, the TC +2 bet cited above would be $30

  11. #11


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Generally a playable game has a SCORE of at least 50 which means a n0 of 20K or less. That is the traditional definition of SCORE where everything is held constant at the standards and only the optimal bets change as you bet the optimal standard spread for the conditions. That said if you are well BR'ed you can use c-SCORE instead of SCORE. That means you can spread as much as you can get away with and bet optimally for that spread. You can also play to whatever RoR you want, basically all the standards no longer apply. You still want a low n0 but if you have a large enough BR you are willing to accept watching huge amounts move into the dealer's chip tray to get big action in with little to no heat. The slash and burn casino players love a tolerant joint with a not so good game. They can get a lot more play in before they get their walking papers. So basically what is playable depends on your BR, style of play and risk tolerance. It is a personal decision that should be made with a well informed idea of what to expect when you play various conditions. The standard is a SCORE of 50. When you start talking c-SCORE at tolerant casinos the picture of what is playable changes dramatically. A longevity player probably uses a really strong count and a spread that would not work well with a simpler system while attacking better games. A simple count player needs to spread more and is easier to detect so they tend not to last long at good games. Their way fits the slash and burn style better and that requires a huge BR by comparison.

    So your BR, risk tolerance, your system, the casino's spread and top bet tolerance and your style of attack (longevity vs slash and burn) determines what is playable for you. You may have noticed the big playing pros asked questions about table limits that indicated spread tolerance or max spread possible was what they were asking about and also max bet limits indicating that they were interested in how well they handle big action. No doubt they have huge BR's and would define a playable game quite differently than someone with a small BR. To a small BR player a top concern may be the min bet because that will define how big they can spread. Other issues are table crowding and NMSE for reasons of wonging in or keeping a great count from being diluted as people jump in mid-shoe. Believe it or not NMSE can be a great rule. It keeps others from wonging in or otherwise joining mid-shoe in a great count and means they must shuffle if you leave a heads up game. Either that or hope you will come back and continue playing the shoe you left. Your view on NMSE depends on your style of play. So what makes a game playable varies from player to player.
    If a playable game is SCORE of 50 then you can turn almost any game into playable game by using Wonging/Wongout.

  12. #12


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    If the max bet is only a $100 then what use is that? Put an hour and half time limit ,then it is useless to most but the small stake players.(score 50 ,counting only)
    Last edited by stopgambling; 10-22-2015 at 06:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Melbourne.
    Posts
    803


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Unfortunately in Australia, the "best" game is a 6 deck S17 shoe game, with D9-11 only, no surrender, nRSA and SPL3. Pen is 85-90%. I use the term "best" loosely because the max bet is around $300 and you'll be kicked out very quickly, as my team once found out.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Which is a more playable game?
    By TheBalanceOfJudgement in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-21-2012, 11:03 AM
  2. roberto: playable pontoon game?
    By roberto in forum International Scene
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-01-2007, 01:36 PM
  3. the gambler: playable rules??????
    By the gambler in forum Blackjack Main
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-21-2005, 08:41 AM
  4. BJ1945: When is a game considered un-playable?
    By BJ1945 in forum Blackjack Beginners
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 06-07-2004, 09:25 AM
  5. Gordon Gecko: Determining a playable game.
    By Gordon Gecko in forum Blackjack Main
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-31-2003, 01:15 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.