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Thread: Procedure question v. EV or count or wonging....."breaking shoe" or "reshuffling"

  1. #1
    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    Aug 2014
    Sooner State

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    Procedure question v. EV or count or wonging....."breaking shoe" or "reshuffling"

    OK; did a quick search. Didn't really see anything but didn't read all of the threads as they didn't seem relevant to what I was looking for. Someone had mentioned "breaking the shoe" in a thread and it brought to mind a question I had on procedure. In Vegas; Tunica (as far as I know) shoe games, if ALL players leave for any length of time, the dealers "break the shoe" and spread the cards across the table. Then they reshuffle when new players come into the game. They do NOT leave the played/discarded cards in the shoe and wait until players arrive at the table.

    However, here, in the Sooner State, I have seen BOTH procedures.......the one being different, where they will just leave the cards in the shoe........then when new players arrive they will burn one card and start dealing from what remains in the shoe. If you ASK them to shuffle the shoe and there are not TOO many cards in the shoe, they will do so on request. I guess they are just trying to conserve time.

    Do any of you experts have any thoughts on how that procedure or different procedure would affect win rate, EV, anything substantial? Maybe I'm just being paranoid as this would not be something that you could necessarily analyze in a program, as you don't know how many cards or decks are left each time. I'm making a "blanket" assumption that if the cards were running good........therefore likely a positive deck remaining, that players would STILL be playing or it would not be an empty table. But you know what ASSUME means.

    Of course if you were wonging, this could be a good or bad thing BUT I wasn't sure. Just interested in your thoughts. Maybe I'm paranoid; maybe it's a stupid question and blast me. But for some reason it just "seems" more kosher if they would re-shuffle the decks again IF new players arrived. Perhaps it's an anti-counter procedure? And perhaps there are simulations that show that if you entered a game toward back of shoe, that you would have a better win rate.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
    136 miles North of West

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    Hey MJ!

    I have seen it both ways also. Just pretend the cards in the discard tray are behind the cut card. That is what you are facing. If 2 decks have been played, 1 1/2 decks are behind the cut card and 2 1/2 decks remain to be played, it's as if it's a full deck with 3 1/2 decks cut off. More than likely if you start counting, there aren't enough cards left for the count to rise to an acceptable level because you have to base your true count on the unseen cards also.

    I once started to play a solo game with the cards still in the discard tray. I used the same excuse you did above about it must be a terrible deck that wiped everyone out. I asked for a new shuffle and the dealer said she wasn't allowed to. She even asked the pit boss and he said he couldn't authorize it because of house policy. I got up and left.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    I'm making a "blanket" assumption that if the cards were running good.....
    Unseen cards are unseen cards. The last players could have left because they were getting great cards and wanted to get off the rollercoaster at the top; they could have been getting hammered by the dealer pulling low card after low card on their stiffs and making 20/21 every time; they could have left because they were meeting someone for dinner.

    You don't know.

    Some places will shuffle up a dead table on request, some places will do it sometimes, some places will not. If you're playing it right, it doesn't affect your EV.
    May the cards fall in your favor.

  4. #4

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    If they leave cards in the shoe it will kill your pen for that first shoe you play. But it can be exploited, of course. Have a female teammate play with one other player at the table. When the count gets really really good she tells the guy that she wants to blow him in the bathroom right this second. They both leave, you swoop in.

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