Bad players at your table

**leveredbuyout** · 10-10-2015, 12:48 PM

Hello all,

I just joined the forum but have been reading off and on the last several months. I come from the poker world so not new to the math of the game. I stick to Hi Low for the time being and use CVC software for learning. Here is my dilemma

I read that bad play by other players won't affect your EV too much and wanted to know if this is true or not. Second as I have only have logged 50 hours to date I wanted to know from the experienced guys what is your limit on how many players you will sit with at a table.

Also, there were times where I had a significant bet out and saw the player next to me make a horrible play multiple times and a few spots costing me max spread bets because he made a wrong stand or hit. How would you suggest I deal with this in the future.

A. I contemplated guaranteeing his win when I had max bet out and he was betting 1 unit because he was making an incorrect play. But I didn't end up doing it because I thought it would draw heat from the PB.

B. Or do you just leave if it becomes a constant issue where he makes mistakes almost as second nature?

In poker its never best to berate the fish when they suckout on you because you know over time it will come back with interest. But I find myself annoyed with some of the regs who play in my store where the tables are limited to be HU.

Thoughts on how you guys deal with this or do you simply just go home and wait for better game selection?

**Dieter** · 10-10-2015, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by leveredbuyout

I read that bad play by other players won't affect your EV too much and wanted to know if this is true or not.

Your EV is determined by what you bet and how you play. Unless they are changing the size of your bets, or playing your hands for you, their actions don't change your EV.

Having other players at the table changes your EV, but whether they are good players or bad players shouldn't noticeably change your EV.

What bad players at the table can do is distract or annoy you. If your ability to play well is reduced due to either of these factors, take a walk.

**leveredbuyout** · 10-10-2015, 01:28 PM

Both of these answers are eye opening and it makes perfect sense I would only remember the times where a bad play only hurt my outcome and not remember a bad play help my outcome. So based on what you guys are telling me as long as I play my game no matter what I do their will be odd plays which will hurt/help me but over the long term my results are dictated by my play.

Makes sense. Thanks for the responses and If I personally feel like I get emotional at any point its best to take a breather or just call it a day.

**ZeeBabar** · 10-10-2015, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by leveredbuyout

Both of these answers are eye opening and it makes perfect sense I would only remember the times where a bad play only hurt my outcome and not remember a bad play help my outcome. So based on what you guys are telling me as long as I play my game no matter what I do their will be odd plays which will hurt/help me but over the long term my results are dictated by my play.

Makes sense. Thanks for the responses and If I personally feel like I get emotional at any point its best to take a breather or just call it a day.

all the advice is correct but we are humans and when the guy next to you hits a 14 with a dealer up card and busts and your max bet loses because the dealer who otherwise would have busted ends up winning, it sometimes irritates you and if it happens often, spoils your mood.

Regardless of the reasons, I am trying to learn to quit a session if my mood tanks. I believe we should not be in an environment where we are unhappy.

**Ryemo** · 10-11-2015, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by leveredbuyout

I read that bad play by other players won't affect your EV too much and wanted to know if this is true or not. Second as I have only have logged 50 hours to date I wanted to know from the experienced guys what is your limit on how many players you will sit with at a table.

Also, there were times where I had a significant bet out and saw the player next to me make a horrible play multiple times and a few spots costing me max spread bets because he made a wrong stand or hit. How would you suggest I deal with this in the future.

I hope the person next to me plays like a moron! I hope they split 5's, stand 13v10, and hit 12v6. Whatever. The sooner the knuckle-head sitting next to me busts out, the sooner I can get back to playing heads up! And when people play like that, they won't last long... hopefully!

How other people play at your table has ZERO effect on your long term results. Sure... maybe the bonehead sitting next to you decided to hit his hard 17 and took the dealer's bust card. Who cares!? Yes, this affects you in the short term, BUT holds no significance for your long term EV. So don't worry about it. I don't even pay attention to how other people play their hands anymore, because it doesn't concern me. Not to mention, you NEVER want to correct anyone when someone is playing poorly, otherwise it'll only make you look hypocritical when it comes time to make some strategy deviations that may look odd to most others. Just play your game and don't worry anyone else. Good luck.

**stopgambling** · 10-11-2015, 02:31 AM

Bad players paid for the bill,respect them

. I do hate them crowd my table and make my playing condition deteriorate.

**Zetetic** · 10-11-2015, 08:40 AM

It depends on what you mean by "bad" play. The decisions other players make are irrelevant. How long they take to make decisions can have a significant impact on your hourly EV. If they agonize over every bet and every decision, they can cut your hands per hour by 50% or more.

**Orangechip2** · 10-11-2015, 09:09 AM

LBO,

When you see someone who is playing like an idiot take the time to think about how you can use them in your favor:

-Wait out while they eat all the little cards, and only wong in to play - when wonging hope to upset the table mates to the point where they leave because your changing the cards.
-when the count is positive conserve the cards- make them feel as if every hit is a bad hit.
-when the count is negative talk them into hitting everything until the count equals out or goes positive.
-come up with a few plays that can possibly 'clear the table' - split something that shouldn't be split and hope to run them off. Do this when the table is 'warming up' to get them to hopefully run off. This was one of my specialties when I use to play full tables in Vegas and the RC was rising.

There are a million ways you can use this idiot in your favor, be creative. Dedicate a day of play by asking random players what they hate the most in table mates, agree with them, and when the count is in your favor do exactly what you to agreed that you hate that other table mates do.

Good Cards and Keep Us Posted along your Journey,
OC2

**Freightman** · 10-11-2015, 11:43 AM

Ok

Originally Posted by Orangechip2

LBO,

When you see someone who is playing like an idiot take the time to think about how you can use them in your favor:

-Wait out while they eat all the little cards, and only wong in to play - when wonging hope to upset the table mates to the point where they leave because your changing the cards.
-when the count is positive conserve the cards- make them feel as if every hit is a bad hit.
-when the count is negative talk them into hitting everything until the count equals out or goes positive.
-come up with a few plays that can possibly 'clear the table' - split something that shouldn't be split and hope to run them off. Do this when the table is 'warming up' to get them to hopefully run off. This was one of my specialties when I use to play full tables in Vegas and the RC was rising.

There are a million ways you can use this idiot in your favor, be creative. Dedicate a day of play by asking random players what they hate the most in table mates, agree with them, and when the count is in your favor do exactly what you to agreed that you hate that other table mates do.

Good Cards and Keep Us Posted along your Journey,
OC2

Excellent points here - worth a reread by most. I was playing at a venue out of town last weekend, where I clearly pissed of 3 local poppies, at different times, with my absolutely "horrendous" play. One low class broad was clearly beligerant - another fellow showed disgust at my unorthodox play - walking off declaring his umbrage, even though my index play clearly helped him win.

Funny how these bozos never understand the errors of their own ways, which in its own way, is irrelevant. The point is, in addition to letting bozo slide off your back, is not to let ploppy logic interfere with your play.

A couple of exceptions - as I have said before - the pit loves a happy table - w can get into that later.

**Dieter** · 10-11-2015, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

not to let ploppy logic interfere with your play.

No, but you should know absolutely every ploppy logic excuse and spout them when it suits you.

"Why did you split 10s? NEVER SPLIT 10s!" - "We were losing for so long, I had to change up the order of the cards to give us a chance." "Oh no, I heard you always split them when they're a suited red pair." And so on.

And be ready to discount it, if they do give sage advice... "Yeah, well, the casinos wrote the book, and I came to gamble... go big or go home, right?" "I felt it in my (bones / guts / shoes / bad knee)..."

**BJGenius007** · 10-11-2015, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

all the advice is correct but we are humans and when the guy next to you hits a 14 with a dealer up card and busts and your max bet loses because the dealer who otherwise would have busted ends up winning, it sometimes irritates you and if it happens often, spoils your mood.

Regardless of the reasons, I am trying to learn to quit a session if my mood tanks. I believe we should not be in an environment where we are unhappy.

I seek tables with bad players. If everyone plays perfect basic strategy at the table, some of them will advise me I just made a bad play and the correct move is such that that. And sooner or later, when the table is in sync, the dealer will make the perfect BS play for me without my signal. When I just sat down, I will soon made a move against BS to let the dealer know I don't follow the book. Normally it is 12 against 4, 5, 6 in negative TC. Some people will leave because they think I will jinx the table. That is GOOD for me.

**Romes** · 10-12-2015, 06:41 AM

"There are other players at the table?"

**Cougfan** · 10-12-2015, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Romes

"There are other players at the table?"

This is a great attitude to have. IMHO an even better attitude is to not even remember the results of your hands. Session results are necessary for record keeping, but hand by hand results are meaningless and can cause emotion to impact your game. Just keep your bets low enough (relative to your BR) that a single hand result will not impact you at all. It is a much, much healthier way to approach the game.

And as OC said, you can also use the other players to your advantage. Use their "bad" plays as an excuse to get pissed off and sit out the rest of the shoe. This also works if someone jumps in mid-shoe (assuming it is not a NMS table). When someone jumps in, I will either get pissed off and announce that I am sitting out, or adding a hand, to preserve the flow. Of course, sometimes I am too distracted to notice and just keep playing the same number of hands......

Please don't be someone who honestly believes that another players hit/stand decision actually impacts your results. You might know the makeup of the remaining deck, but unless you know the exact order of those remaining cards, it does not matter what other players do. And if you do know the exact order, then just sit at third base and adjust your play accordingly.