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Thread: Found a great game but need some advice

  1. #1


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    Found a great game but need some advice

    Can anyone give me some advice how to approach this game on a regular basis?

    I ventured out to a smaller casino about 100 miles out of state from me to scope it out. I've always heard the conditions are decent there but I didn't know exactly how good until I went last night.

    The game is 2D, S17, NDAS, Split up to 3x, No resplit Aces Dealer dependent penetration in 2 1/2 hours I saw no less than 75% and up to 90% It was like finding a gold mine. The place was pretty dead which had me worried but I took cover under a large whale on the table next to me betting table max with 15k in front of him with most of the direct eyes on that game. I went to town on my table almost unnoticed by the pit crew until I cashed out ahead several blacks and then I was long gone. However if they rewind the tapes I was right on 3/3 insurance bets, i had two max bets out there on two hands against dealer 10 with two stiff 16s stayed on both dealer busted. Pretty much every index play I used worked to my advantage. Just one of those nights everything goes right.

    Im worried this is a counter trap game though and was wondering what types of cover I should be using. That's the weakest part of my game. I fear they wont take a lot of action I wish it was closer so I could just do some short 20-30 min sessions but having to drive 100 miles to play a few shoes and leave doesn't seem fun either but the game is so damn good.

    How do you approach good games with longevity? I was spreading 25-125 but when count was really good would go 2 x 125. I imagine if it wasn't for the whale on the other table all eyes would've been focused on me. Obviously I'm not going to have that luxury everytime so what types of cover should I employ?

  2. #2


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    You found a decent rule game (.4%) but that penetration makes it a great game indeed! Careful when playing with whales (at the same table) as you're right, the eyes in the sky are on him, and your table. Usually it's best to play at the same time as a whale, but at another table.

    If it was a pure counter trap I would think the rules would be better. Here the PEN is what makes the game great, and a lot of casino staff don't really understand that. So they might not understand how great of a game they're offering when cutting 80-85% PEN on a DD (on average). That being said, it could still be a counter trap, but I digress. There's a lot of different kinds of cover you can take. I wrote a few articles on A to Z Counting Cards and I'm not sure if I can link them, but they are on the Articles section of the Wizard of Vegas site. In the 2nd article I go over "Free Cover" and "Cover with a cost." I would highly recommend checking them out.

    For some short answers... If longevity is your key, your session length, max bet, and when you leave are going to be fairly crucial. You need to keep shorter sessions (under an hour) and leave after you expose your max bet (so you don't have to "reset" off the top or take a hit using cover and betting more off the top). This isn't to say you can't take a break, take a lap around the casino, play at another "ok" game for an hour and return... but for longevity, you can't "camp out." Next, whenever you expose your max bet you probably need to head to another game, take a lap/break, etc. Unless you can slowly work back down your ramp, it's a fairly easy tell off when you expose a max bet then return to a min, or even 2x min bet at the beginning of the next shoe. For this reason I like short buying (with small bills) as discussed in my 2nd article. Buy in at this game for $240 with all $20 bills. If you were the PB what would your thought be? Small time player that'll be gone in no time... aka NO THREAT. You want this "no threat" status. You can always rebuy for more (and the pit LOVES a gambler willing to chase his losses and willing to keep rebuying), or pull an "all in" move when you want to bet $125 or so. Again, this is covered a lot more in the articles. Lastly, your max bet... Normally around a 1:8 spread is good for DD, but if this is a really good PEN game as you say, and you really want the longevity, I'd pull it back to about 1:6, maybe 1:5 pending how I felt the pit handled any action over $100/hand. You're going to have to feel out how your max bet is received. That whale won't always be there to provide cover =).

    Any questions on what I've mentioned just ask!
    Last edited by Romes; 09-15-2015 at 08:29 AM.

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    The first thing is always stand on 16vT. That would solve the issue of standing on it with big bets out while the cost for the cover play is measured in pennies. BJA3 has a nice section on this that gives you the figures you need to make an informed choice. What you need to consider is the relative size of the bets affected by the cover play. The frequency you get the matchup and the frequency the cover play costs you money as well as the cost of each incident per $100 bet. See chapter 7 in BJA3, "Camouflage for the Basic Strategist and the Card Counter". The tables in the chapter are a great starting point but make sure you read the chapter to get the best use from the tables.

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    What you're describing is a great game, even with low spread. I would keep the location to myself if I were you. Depending on tolerance, do you you strip it a and get bounced right away, or do u milk it and get bounced whenever. With the whale next table over, sounds like they take action. Sounds like u were heads up, or mostly heads up.

    Your spread is not huge, but sufficient to beat it nicely. You don't need to spread to 2 hands if playing heads up. I guess the real question is - exactly how tolerant are these guys. What the answer would determine is - do u stay where you are bet wise, or do you venture with a higher spread. Nice find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcallister3200 View Post
    ...with pretty much zero cover... for the most part take care of the dealers a bit there and they didn't care...
    That doesn't exactly sound like zero cover =P. Several $1 bets for the dealer per hour cuts in to your hourly... Not saying don't do this (I do - in fact I reworked my spread to make an extra few bucks an hour to use for tipping at a couple places) but understand everything you do with your money has a cost and effects your EV/bottom line.

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    if its in new York they are not tolerant at all

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    First, why are you playing? If it is fun/a hobby for you and it is important not to lose this casino then you probably have the right approach being cautious. Short sessions and cover are fine. If you are trying to make money you have to play a strong game for 3-4 hours for it to be worth a trip. If you can't do that you aren't going to make much money off of the place, so even if it is a great game what is it really worth? You should be able to get away with a lot with such a small spread in green unless the place is really intolerant.

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    Just reading the cover information, it is quite easy for a Las Vegas AP to say to leave after a max bet. When I drive 2-3 hours to play at a casino, and not only expose my max bet in the first shoe, but lose it, then it's awful hard to walk away, drive 2-3 hours home. It's a bit easier if you have won at least a couple of hundred, a lot easier if you have won n $500+.

    My spread s the same, 1-6 with max bet around $150-$175. I think a combination of my age, profession (I play rated) plus some rat holing, being friendly with the pit, ensuring they know when I leave having lost, leaving at appropriate times when pit is occupied and such makes a difference. I suppose if I was in my 20's, playing unrated, I would get a lot more scrutiny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    When I drive 2-3 hours to play at a casino, and not only expose my max bet in the first shoe, but lose it, then it's awful hard to walk away, drive 2-3 hours home. It's a bit easier if you have won at least a couple of hundred, a lot easier if you have won n $500+.
    What difference does it make whether you win or lose on your first showing of your spread? It is all one big session. It should be just as easy to leave whether you win or lose. People with gambling issues worry about winning or losing short term, AP's don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    What difference does it make whether you win or lose on your first showing of your spread? It is all one big session. It should be just as easy to leave whether you win or lose. People with gambling issues worry about winning or losing short term, AP's don't.
    I agree. I am trying to get there. For the present, you take a precious vacation day, drive 2-3 hours, play 5 minutes, lose your max bet, it's hard to just drive back home. It's all, I am saying. Luckily for me, when I first started playing, rated, and losing, I established my credentials there so I get away even if it obvious I am counting. My spread is low, I never try to win too much in any session, have an act, and am able to get away. I average no more than $700 a month from that casino or any of the f the 3-4 casinos that are my regular haunts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    The first thing is always stand on 16vT. That would solve the issue of standing on it with big bets out while the cost for the cover play is measured in pennies. BJA3 has a nice section on this that gives you the figures you need to make an informed choice. What you need to consider is the relative size of the bets affected by the cover play. The frequency you get the matchup and the frequency the cover play costs you money as well as the cost of each incident per $100 bet. See chapter 7 in BJA3, "Camouflage for the Basic Strategist and the Card Counter". The tables in the chapter are a great starting point but make sure you read the chapter to get the best use from the tables.
    Not disagreeing at all, but I believe it provides better cover to always hit 16vT, albeit at a slightly higher cost overall. The problem with standing is when you then hit 16v9, 16v8, 16v7, etc. I have had a few dealers start to pass me up on these latter plays because they thought I "always stood on 16" after the 16vT play. They then comment that it is odd (to them) for someone to hit against a 9 and stand versus a ten. Opens up a whole conversation that is best avoided if possible.

    The important thing from a cover perspective is just to always play this hand the same way.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    I agree. I am trying to get there. For the present, you take a precious vacation day, drive 2-3 hours, play 5 minutes, lose your max bet, it's hard to just drive back home. It's all, I am saying. Luckily for me, when I first started playing, rated, and losing, I established my credentials there so I get away even if it obvious I am counting. My spread is low, I never try to win too much in any session, have an act, and am able to get away. I average no more than $700 a month from that casino or any of the f the 3-4 casinos that are my regular haunts.
    Who says you have to leave the casino and go home? Like I said in my previous comment, just take a break, grab food, watch/play a point of cheap craps, go to another pit and play a "slightly less" positive 6D game, etc...

    Scenario 1: Max bet exposed, and you win. "I'm gonna run like hell since I actually made a little bit!" ...go to the 6D tables and play for a little while. Then return an hour later and play. If you need an explanation (same dealer asking or something) just say "Yeah I tried to play the cheaper 6D game and it didn't work, so I'm back to do it again!" Not only did you wait a bit to come back to the game but supposedly you're "down" now which would warrant playing cheaper (table min) again.

    Scenario 2: Max bet exposed, and you lose. "I don't have much money left, now I have to go play a cheaper table!" ...go play the 6D tables for a little while. Return later same as before and claim you got back to even and you're ready for another shot or something dumb. Again, this is only if you need to say anything at all. New dealers/pit (if you're there around shift change) then I wouldn't even say anything and just play starting at table min.

    It's really not too hard to give free cover (if you need) and get away with anything you want. Just think "what would a ploppy say?" and go with it. This is all assuming you want to keep on the tables to get hands and be extra productive during your trip. Never mind going to the bathroom/food break/etc. You don't have to leave the casino after a long drive because you exposed your max bet.

  13. #13


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    Why do you need to stop after you make a max bet? If you are going to leave (win or lose) right after your max bet, who knows it is your max bet besides you?
    "No sir, I have no experience, but I'm a big fan of money. I like it, I use it, I have a little. I keep it in a jar on top of my refrigerator. I'd like to put more in that jar. That's where you come in." -Adam Sandler

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