See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 19

Thread: My first BO, what did I do wrong?

  1. #1


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    My first BO, what did I do wrong?

    So I just experience my first backoff as a card counter today. I am sad to say that it was at my favorite casino in the area, but it wasn't a bad experience. On the contrary, the two people that backed me off were very pleasant and complimented me on my play and just told me that I am too good for them. I am now not allowed to play any table games at this place (is it safe to say where? I don't think anyone will be surprised if they hear the name, it is in removed).

    Anyways, although I am excited that I got BO'd (I must be doing something right, I hope...), I want to know what caused me to get the tap. I am not afraid to admit that I do not have 100% perfect play yet as I've only been seriously counting cards and applying bet spreads and such for about 2 months now, and have only been using Hi-Opt II for about 2 weeks. I was spreading 1-6 at the $25 DD table, which I was under the impression is generally a safe spread at most places, especially while using HOII. The biggest reason that I can think of is that I don't generally ramp up my bets slowly, if the count jumps suddenly I will jump my bet with it, usually going just 1 unit below the recommended bet vs the TC. For example, if the TC jumps from 0 to 3, my bet spread would indicate I bet $100, but going from a $25 bet I will just press it to $75. Generally I try not to press more than $50 a hand, unless the TC jumps high enough to indicate a 4 unit+ bet AND I only have a handful of green chips left on the table, making it seem like an "all-in" type of play. As far as my profile goes I am in my mid 20s but look like I'm 15, I try to tip about $5 an hour, sometimes more at the end when coloring up a big win, and I try to make small talk with the dealers/pit managers to not seem like I'm super focused on the cards. I also hesitate when I have hands that are potential doubles/splits and show the cards to the dealer to seem like I'm not super sure of what I'm doing. I also like to complain a lot when I get pocket Aces when the count is high (UGH I have to split Aces vs a 10 when I have $150 on the table, this SUCKS! ) I was playing rated, as I always do there, but I hadn't been at this place in about 4 months and it was the first time actually counting cards there.

    I would love some input on my play and ways I can work on my cover so I can avoid being BO'd at other casinos in my area, I'm already driving 2+ hours as is and would love to be able to continue to visit local stores. Please let me know if I put in too much information or too little so I can amend the post. Also feel free to PM me if you'd like to keep some information more private.

    On a side note: I'm thinking of going to Vegas soon, can I get some recommendations of where to play either via PM or post here?

    Thank you!!
    Last edited by dommyy13; 09-14-2015 at 01:51 PM.

  2. #2


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    sent you a PM. you should delete the location.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    136 miles North of West
    Posts
    1,949


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Rolling
    I am trying to understand why someone would need to delete the location. He's already backed off from that casino and it might be good information for someone else who intended to play there. To me it seems you'd keep the location of the ones that didn't back you off quiet and broadcast the ones that are sweaty. What is your reasoning?
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  4. #4


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    U
    Quote Originally Posted by dommyy13 View Post
    So I just experience my first backoff as a card counter today. I am sad to say that it was at my favorite casino in the area, but it wasn't a bad experience. On the contrary, the two people that backed me off were very pleasant and complimented me on my play and just told me that I am too good for them. I am now not allowed to play any table games at this place (is it safe to say where? I don't think anyone will be surprised if they hear the name, it is in SoCal).

    Anyways, although I am excited that I got BO'd (I must be doing something right, I hope...), I want to know what caused me to get the tap. I am not afraid to admit that I do not have 100% perfect play yet as I've only been seriously counting cards and applying bet spreads and such for about 2 months now, and have only been using Hi-Opt II for about 2 weeks. I was spreading 1-6 at the $25 DD table, which I was under the impression is generally a safe spread at most places, especially while using HOII. The biggest reason that I can think of is that I don't generally ramp up my bets slowly, if the count jumps suddenly I will jump my bet with it, usually going just 1 unit below the recommended bet vs the TC. For example, if the TC jumps from 0 to 3, my bet spread would indicate I bet $100, but going from a $25 bet I will just press it to $75. Generally I try not to press more than $50 a hand, unless the TC jumps high enough to indicate a 4 unit+ bet AND I only have a handful of green chips left on the table, making it seem like an "all-in" type of play. As far as my profile goes I am in my mid 20s but look like I'm 15, I try to tip about $5 an hour, sometimes more at the end when coloring up a big win, and I try to make small talk with the dealers/pit managers to not seem like I'm super focused on the cards. I also hesitate when I have hands that are potential doubles/splits and show the cards to the dealer to seem like I'm not super sure of what I'm doing. I also like to complain a lot when I get pocket Aces when the count is high (UGH I have to split Aces vs a 10 when I have $150 on the table, this SUCKS! ) I was playing rated, as I always do there, but I hadn't been at this place in about 4 months and it was the first time actually counting cards there.

    I would love some input on my play and ways I can work on my cover so I can avoid being BO'd at other casinos in my area, I'm already driving 2+ hours as is and would love to be able to continue to visit local stores. Please let me know if I put in too much information or too little so I can amend the post. Also feel free to PM me if you'd like to keep some information more private.

    On a side note: I'm thinking of going to Vegas soon, can I get some recommendations of where to play either via PM or post here?

    Thank you!!
    Please note that my comments are from someone who is almost exclusively a shoe player, and others more knowledgable on DD may well have a differing opinion.

    The fact that your young, with an apparent baby face to boot, was part of the issue spreading 1-6. I don't know what the table conditions were, so 1-6 may or may not have had a high SCORE. That being said, your maximum EV would essentially be to bet what the count calls for. This is really a problem at dd, and for that matter, so was the double jump to 75.

    You got the heave first time counting cards - what did you do Wrong? Don't know - wasn't watching - maybe something, maybe nothing.

    So, if longevity is your goal, patience is called for. One problem that I see is that many counters, possibly yourself as well, are fairly robotic on their ramps, and are therefore, quite predictable. At relatively low cost, have buckets of bets for various true counts. Think of it as an intersection of rings, like Olympic Rings. Makes you look like a progression bettor. Depending on bankroll strength, there is some room for opposition type bets which will aid your cause.

    General wisdom dictates 1-8 spread on dd to make money. I've seen conditions where that is not even close to being enough, and others where it is hugely more than sufficient. So, I guess the question is, what were the conditions, including deck pen?

  5. #5


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    if this game has ls then the score was sufficient unless full table

  6. #6


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    U

    Please note that my comments are from someone who is almost exclusively a shoe player, and others more knowledgable on DD may well have a differing opinion.

    The fact that your young, with an apparent baby face to boot, was part of the issue spreading 1-6. I don't know what the table conditions were, so 1-6 may or may not have had a high SCORE. That being said, your maximum EV would essentially be to bet what the count calls for. This is really a problem at dd, and for that matter, so was the double jump to 75.

    You got the heave first time counting cards - what did you do Wrong? Don't know - wasn't watching - maybe something, maybe nothing.

    So, if longevity is your goal, patience is called for. One problem that I see is that many counters, possibly yourself as well, are fairly robotic on their ramps, and are therefore, quite predictable. At relatively low cost, have buckets of bets for various true counts. Think of it as an intersection of rings, like Olympic Rings. Makes you look like a progression bettor. Depending on bankroll strength, there is some room for opposition type bets which will aid your cause.

    General wisdom dictates 1-8 spread on dd to make money. I've seen conditions where that is not even close to being enough, and others where it is hugely more than sufficient. So, I guess the question is, what were the conditions, including deck pen?

    H17, DA2, DAS, RSA, LS, 60% pen as determined by the little slot in their used card caddy (don't know what those are called).

    There is another place where I play with H17, DA2, DAS, and 75% pen and I've yet to be backed off there after playing twice a week for the past 4 weeks (and winning!) so I'm curious as to why I was backed off so quickly this time.

    maybe I'm giving out too much information, please let me know if i am so I can edit it out.

  7. #7


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
    if this game has ls then the score was sufficient unless full table
    Yes, LS is an option, I was playing heads up about half the time, up to 2 other people max at the table the other half.

  8. #8


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    It's just random some places you can play for 200 hrs, then some pit boss doesn't like the look of you and you get a backoff playing the same way. It's better not to overthink things counting is obvious and you will get backed off everywhere. Just try not to have it be under your real name lol.

  9. #9


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    While I'll agree there is a bit of 'luck of the draw' to what kind of PB is on the clock today, if you're a pro (or planning to go pro) these are things you should try to figure out in your usual rotation of stores. What PB's sweat little action, etc? A 1-6 spread at DD is generally safe within the bounds of DD, so I don't think that was your issue. I myself can also attest that if you look young, you will get a lot more heat. On a trip to vegas some time back now I walked in to Palace Station and never got more than a $25 bet on the table ($10 table) and they harassed me for my ID to the point I had to leave (no not for age verification, the PB kept saying I'll give you a buffet just give me your ID... why you have no players card give me your ID, etc). Your age/look will definitely work against you unless you play the part and use it for you (young drinking rich kid, for example). How you dress, etc, could all be considered cover depending how finely detailed you want to get.

    Next question, how long are your sessions? If you camp out at that DD game every time you go there for hours then you're kind of asking for it. Especially if there's not a lot of other people playing the game in which case you're the only person by default they have to really "check out." You say you have a 2+ hour drive to get there, which would make me think you want to get at least 4 hours of table time to make the drive worth your while? I hope you're breaking this up in to smaller sessions and playing different tables/etc?

    It sounds like you're on the right track with your attitude, chatting up the dealers/PB's. I've found being friendly and driving conversation with them definitely helps. There's a few other thoughts though... When you go in to these casinos do you make a direct B line for the game you usually play? You could always go watch a point of craps, or even (if they have low limit) play a couple $5 rolls. This cover is super cheap if you think about it and it helps anyone from picking you off the moment you walk in the door. For that matter, what other cover do you use? I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link, but I wrote 3 articles on A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack that are posted on the Wizard of Vegas Articles section. In them I go over cover with a cost, and free cover. Another thing that helps is small buy in amounts. If you're at a quarter table and you buy in for $200, in $20 bills, the PB is going to write you off as small time and probably think you'll be gone in a while. You can always buy more as you need, and this makes the "all-in" more available. Plus, if you have to buy in a few times PB's actually love this. You'll look like a gambler willing to chase his losses. This is what you want, that first impression. You want to be labeled a "non-threat" from the moment you walk in to the casino. According to your post I've been counting a lotttt longer than you, but I also have a couple drinks at the table and I know a few times in-particular that has absolutely helped my image. What I find so interesting about counting (even though a lot of AP's scoff at counting) is that there's always something more to learn...

    Last question, as I usually ask everyone this. You've pretty much already given me enough info to run the numbers on your game. For the game you posted, what's your average bet, gain per hand, and hourly win rate? I find a LOT of people don't know how to figure these numbers out and anyone who can't I don't recommend playing in a casino. There is a huuuuuge difference (in my opinion) between thinking you have a winning game, and knowing you have a winning game. Article 1 of 3 I mentioned above discusses this in great length.
    Last edited by Romes; 09-14-2015 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Agharta
    Posts
    1,868


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by dommyy13 View Post
    So I just experience my first backoff as a card counter today. I am sad to say that it was at my favorite casino in the area, but it wasn't a bad experience. On the contrary, the two people that backed me off were very pleasant and complimented me on my play and just told me that I am too good for them. I am now not allowed to play any table games at this place (is it safe to say where? I don't think anyone will be surprised if they hear the name, it is in removed).

    Anyways, although I am excited that I got BO'd (I must be doing something right, I hope...), I want to know what caused me to get the tap. I am not afraid to admit that I do not have 100% perfect play yet as I've only been seriously counting cards and applying bet spreads and such for about 2 months now, and have only been using Hi-Opt II for about 2 weeks. I was spreading 1-6 at the $25 DD table, which I was under the impression is generally a safe spread at most places, especially while using HOII. The biggest reason that I can think of is that I don't generally ramp up my bets slowly, if the count jumps suddenly I will jump my bet with it, usually going just 1 unit below the recommended bet vs the TC. For example, if the TC jumps from 0 to 3, my bet spread would indicate I bet $100, but going from a $25 bet I will just press it to $75. Generally I try not to press more than $50 a hand, unless the TC jumps high enough to indicate a 4 unit+ bet AND I only have a handful of green chips left on the table, making it seem like an "all-in" type of play. As far as my profile goes I am in my mid 20s but look like I'm 15, I try to tip about $5 an hour, sometimes more at the end when coloring up a big win, and I try to make small talk with the dealers/pit managers to not seem like I'm super focused on the cards. I also hesitate when I have hands that are potential doubles/splits and show the cards to the dealer to seem like I'm not super sure of what I'm doing. I also like to complain a lot when I get pocket Aces when the count is high (UGH I have to split Aces vs a 10 when I have $150 on the table, this SUCKS! ) I was playing rated, as I always do there, but I hadn't been at this place in about 4 months and it was the first time actually counting cards there.

    I would love some input on my play and ways I can work on my cover so I can avoid being BO'd at other casinos in my area, I'm already driving 2+ hours as is and would love to be able to continue to visit local stores. Please let me know if I put in too much information or too little so I can amend the post. Also feel free to PM me if you'd like to keep some information more private.

    On a side note: I'm thinking of going to Vegas soon, can I get some recommendations of where to play either via PM or post here?

    Thank you!!
    Unless you are not spreading, you will face backoffs at DD. Regardless. I've even been banned from Spanish21.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 09-14-2015 at 05:36 PM.

  11. #11


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Plain and simple - double deck games are watched much more closely than 6 or 8-deck shoe games. This is due to the much higher advantage that can be obtained at the DD game. For instance, the DD game you were playing (H17, DA2, DAS, RSA, LS, 60% pen, $25 min, spread 1-6, Hi-Opt II) has an hourly win rate of $45 with a SCORE of 65 and N0 around 15k.

    Now, move over to the 6-deck, $10 min shoe game with the same rules and 75% pen, you will need to spread 1-22 to achieve at $45 hourly win rate, but the SCORE comes in much lower at 38 and the N0 is around 26k (due to much higher standard deviation).

    So your DD game at 1-6 spread is more than 50% better than the 6-deck shoe game at a 1-22 spread. If I can run the sim, so can the casinos. From what I'm learning about DD games from contributors on this site and from my experience, I've come to the conclusion that there are only two ways to play the DD game: 1) play unrated/anonymous, short sessions, hit and run or 2) find a local store where you can play rated as a regular, develop a good relationship with the floor people and play a reasonable spread within their tolerances. Apparently the casino you got backed off from will not be on that list....

  12. #12
    Senior Member Bodarc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    136 miles North of West
    Posts
    1,949


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
    the DD game you were playing (H17, DA2, DAS, RSA, LS, 60% pen, $25 min, spread 1-6, Hi-Opt II) has an hourly win rate of $45 with a SCORE of 65 and N0 around 15k.
    Bigdaddy, I think there may be something wrong with your sim. Off hand, I don't think you'll get a 65 SCORE with a spread of just 6. I could be wrong but that seems high to me.
    Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson

  13. #13


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodarc View Post
    Rolling
    I am trying to understand why someone would need to delete the location. He's already backed off from that casino and it might be good information for someone else who intended to play there. To me it seems you'd keep the location of the ones that didn't back you off quiet and broadcast the ones that are sweaty. What is your reasoning?
    You never want to broadcast your location, especially after a back off. Finished the first paragraph and as soon as I saw the location [not casino, but area] he mentioned, I knew exactly which casino he was referring to. Everyone already knows the casino is good at catching counters with good surveillance. There is no good reason to announce you got backed off at any specific casino or area, at least I don't think so. If anything, I'd wait a good amount of time before telling others [on a public forum] where it was you got backed off from. My opinion, at least.


    OP: Getting backed off is not a "good" thing. Not something you should be happy about. All it means (I think) is you were betting with the count at the same time surveillance was reviewing your play. Hell, you could probably make plenty of errors and they'd still back you off -- as long as you're close-enough to 'betting with the count'.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Is there something wrong with my WONG?
    By FinanceGhost in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 03-10-2014, 08:07 PM
  2. Dog Hand: What am I doing wrong?
    By Dog Hand in forum International Scene
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-02-2007, 11:10 AM
  3. Mr. Ed: What's wrong with Foxwoods/MS
    By Mr. Ed in forum Blackjack Beginners
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 01-14-2004, 08:50 PM
  4. Hollywood: HELP:What am I doing wrong?
    By Hollywood in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-23-2002, 09:55 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.