Single deck or DD game..

[ZeeBabar]

Yesterday, I was in a large casino down south that offered many DD games with penetration varying between 55-65% and standard rules with H17 and no Surrender. They also had just one SD game.

The only rule difference between the two games was that the SD game days d not allow doubling after splits.

In in the old days, there used to be talk about "round of 6" etc., but even heads up or with one person, the dealer was giving 3-4 rounds. She would deal three rounds and, depending upon cards remaining, deal one more or shuffle. This was bad when 2 were playing but when. I was heads up, I was getting 4 rounds only.

I did play successfully by simply playing $25 to start the game, increasing with the running count to $50 at RC 1, $75 at RC2 and $100 at RC 3, it seldom went more than RC4. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the subtleties of the SD game and splitting rules when no doubling. I saw the pit getting interested when I was up about $800 so I quit, moved to a DD game in another pit.

Is it a good game or is the DD game better? If the DD game was dealt to 70% plus, would that be the better game?

[Marlene]

Play all 7 spots heads up. 25 on first base and increasing to 1000 on 3rd base. You will need all indices and 2 level count. Report back on pits reaction.

[ZeeBabar]

Moses, I don't get it. The advice of the Round of 6 in SD was at a time when anything less and you could find other SD games and DD games were dealt deeper. Given those options I mentioned, why would the SSs game be do much worse?

[bigplayer]

h17 double any two no das single deck with only 18 cards dealt to a heads up player is pretty rotten. That said, if you play it like a double deck game with those rules (1-10 spread) you can beat it, but the win rate will be like more a double deck game, not a single deck game. Don't expect to spread 1-4 like a juicy single deck game and win, because you might be getting a 0.5% advantage.

[moo321]

Basically, that's a SD game with terrible pen. If you can spread a lot, SD with terrible pen can still be playable, even good. But beware of thinking "oh, single deck is always best!" and turn up your nose at an 8d H17 game right next to it with 10 cards cut off.

[Romes]

Yesterday, I was in a large casino down south that offered many DD games with penetration varying between 55-65% and standard rules with H17 and no Surrender. They also had just one SD game.

The only rule difference between the two games was that the SD game days d not allow doubling after splits.

In in the old days, there used to be talk about "round of 6" etc., but even heads up or with one person, the dealer was giving 3-4 rounds. She would deal three rounds and, depending upon cards remaining, deal one more or shuffle. This was bad when 2 were playing but when. I was heads up, I was getting 4 rounds only.

I did play successfully by simply playing $25 to start the game, increasing with the running count to $50 at RC 1, $75 at RC2 and $100 at RC 3, it seldom went more than RC4. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the subtleties of the SD game and splitting rules when no doubling. I saw the pit getting interested when I was up about $800 so I quit, moved to a DD game in another pit.

Is it a good game or is the DD game better? If the DD game was dealt to 70% plus, would that be the better game?

The average number of cards per hand in blackjack is either 2.71 or 2.78 pending which site you visit, so let's say 2.75. This means about 5.5 cards per round at 4 rounds, which comes out to be 22 cards, about 43% pen, on average. Normally in a shoe game (let's say 6D) this is completely unbeatable because the TC frequencies will get ruined. However, with single deck, any for the most part double deck, the frequencies are already much higher given the short number of decks. Now, I'm not saying 43% pen on a single deck is good, because it's not, but other conditions may allow for a winning game... Such as pit personnel, dealer mistakes, etc, etc. Were you using hi/low? If you use another count 'sometimes' that can provide some cover. Were you playing with any other cover?

Overall you're looking at about 45% PEN on the single deck w/ a house edge of .31% VS 60% PEN on the double deck w/ a house edge of .46%. All other variables equal (heat, etc) they're probably not all that far apart with the double deck being a better choice. Also, the fewer decks the more attention one usually receives. Ideally you'd like a little more PEN on both games, but both games sound beatable to me. As others said your $800 win in a short time period is clearly a fluctuation of good variance as your EV was probably no where near that. Well now that made me curious so I ran the EV:

EV for single deck game/spread described above BUT 50% PEN = ~$20/hour.
EV for double deck game described above and similar spread w/ 60% PEN = ~$35/hour.

This is also assuming a Hi/Low count, which isn't the best for single/double deck games, but none the less... Factoring in the 43% PEN instead of 50% PEN and I'll slightly correct myself in saying the DD game is clearly the better choice.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Romes,

Yes, this SD is not as not as good as the DD. It is dreadful.

You said ... "there used to be talk about "round of 6" etc."

That is the "Rule of 6"

You said ... "The average number of cards per hand in blackjack is either 2.71 or 2.78"

These are from James Grosjean:

The first is for H17, the second is for S17

SD: 2.92 / 2.77

DD: 2.92 / 2.78

6d: 2.93 / 2.78

8d: 2.93 / 2.78

[Smartblackjack]

What are the rules dont say standard rules because some pay 3/2 on blackjack some pay 6/5 on blackjack I dont know what you mean by standard rules. If you got two games one game is single deck with a 3/2 payout on blackjack, double any first two cards, split pairs with no double after split, hit soft 17 that is really good game.
If you have a double deck game with 3/2 blackjack, double any two cards, split pairs with double after split allowed that is a really good game too even if they hit soft 17. As long as they deal 2 rounds or more before shuffling both games are beatable.

[Three]

6:5 is a carney game not BJ.

[Frank Galvin]

Was recently in Reno, Carson City and Lake Tahoe, Nevada. Approximately 70-75% of aggregate 1D, DD and 6D games have 6:5 blackjack payoffs. Visited 14 or 15 casinos (1 did not have table games, just slots and video games).

Rules are horrible! Double 10&11 only, or 9, 10 and 11 only, except about 60-70% 6D shoe games.

Mostly, NDAS, no Surrender, obviously no soft splitting, nearly all preclude resplitting Aces. Pen is dealer dependent, but preferential reshuffling and the discretion to burn an excessive amounts of cards off the top, (as much as 1/4 deck in 1D game at GSR in Reno), is also vested within the discretion of the dealers.

So, for those who have committed themselves to playing in this region -- who have committed themselves to playing against "carny" rules, as opined by at least 1 regular poster here, which opinion I suspect would be shared by most -- I suspect most others here would deem these conditions unplayable, and not worth the effort to transform their approaches (too little potential for reward). I know that there are other AP approaches that might make these games profitable, with sufficient scouting and research. But did I mention that most pits sweat 1-6 green action bet spreads in 2D games, and several closely watch chunky red chipping spreads (1-12 or 1*1 to 2*6 / 2*8) in 1D or DD games?

I have to give props to Moses and others out here who can survive, but for me, I'm not looking to survive. I'm more interested in chewing bubble gum and counting cards. But since they're all out of gum, I cannot perceive any remaining long term ability to count cards in these woods. Consequently, were this my backyard, it would be my preference to silently accept their irrational destruction of their local games, boycott their casino's fraudulent scams upon poppies, and look for greener pastures.

Sorry for my diatribe, but Tthree's comment really sparked my need to vent about conditions I found out in and near Reno.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/