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Thread: Hi-Lo meets Martingale

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    Hi-Lo meets Martingale

    The Martingale betting system is unbeatable provided two criteria are met: Unlimited bankroll and no max bet limit at the table.

    I know the Martingale system is pretty well dismissed among advantage players. However, couldn't the system be used with reduced risk of hitting the table max if combined with counting?

    Just a question. If it's not worth the energy just don't respond rather than battering me with personal insults.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    You cannot even win with an unlimited bankroll since you cannot increase an unlimited bankroll.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Depending on how you combine it, I do think that the adding the element of card counting would reduce risk (because of the reduction of large bet frequencies).

    However, I don't see why anyone would want to do this. The approach would have more variance than standard bet-ramping with no real gain in EV. Why try to save a toaster from the 70s when you can just use a new one? Even if you could devise a system better than plain martingale, it would still be worse than standard counting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    You cannot even win with an unlimited bankroll since you cannot increase an unlimited bankroll.
    Mind blown. Thank you, Norm.

    Just trying to wrap my head around the possibility of short term gain strategy. Counting as we all know is dependent on maximizing hands played.

    Maybe short term gain strategy is impossible, but so are many things before a discovery is made.

    Thanks again for the input.

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    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudstreets7087 View Post
    Mind blown. Thank you, Norm.

    Just trying to wrap my head around the possibility of short term gain strategy. Counting as we all know is dependent on maximizing hands played.

    Maybe short term gain strategy is impossible, but so are many things before a discovery is made.

    Thanks again for the input.

    The jesuit priest Don Juan revered Martingale until he bankrupted all his mistresses. Nick Leeson of Barings Bank also was bled to death by Martingale's allure. But guess what? That could never happen to you because in conjunction with counting it's money in the bank. Revolutionary advancements/enhancements still exist. All you need is shutzpah to ferret them out!

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    A basic understanding of mathematics dictates the inescapable conclusion

    that all betting progressions are doomed to abject failure. That is a tautology.

    It is NEVER worthy of discussion beyond that simple fact. No debates.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudstreets7087 View Post
    The Martingale betting system is unbeatable provided two criteria are met: Unlimited bankroll and no max bet limit at the table.

    I know the Martingale system is pretty well dismissed among advantage players. However, couldn't the system be used with reduced risk of hitting the table max if combined with counting?

    Just a question. If it's not worth the energy just don't respond rather than battering me with personal insults.

    Thanks.
    Martingale is a loser. What would work, with counting, are betting progressions within true count buckets, which is an entirely different thing.
    EV would be affected, and strong bankroll would be required. Would not try it on shoestring bankroll. Depending on ones goals, you could still make some pretty good dough.

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    There are also some tourney situations where a very brief progression may be useful.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudstreets7087 View Post
    The Martingale betting system is unbeatable provided two criteria are met: Unlimited bankroll and no max bet limit at the table.

    I know the Martingale system is pretty well dismissed among advantage players. However, couldn't the system be used with reduced risk of hitting the table max if combined with counting?

    Just a question. If it's not worth the energy just don't respond rather than battering me with personal insults.

    Thanks.
    It is not real to say that the Martingale betting system is unbeatable provided that someone have an unlimited bankroll and no max bet limit at the time. Because in the real world gamblers play with a limited bankroll and table max that is not infinite. Which means that your question is purely hypothetical.

    Whoever have an advantage will come out on top. Betting progressions like the Martingale will not hold up to the laws of probability. Any betting strategy that is not based on betting proportional to your advantage will not be of use, benefit, or advantage to players. Moving your bet up an down is only produces results if your are sizing your bet based on your edge NOT based on whether or not you lost or win your previous hand. Winning or losing on your previous hand have no importance on your odds of winning. Advantage blackjack player raise their bet to generate a positive expected return when the odds are in their favor.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 08-09-2015 at 03:47 PM.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    A basic understanding of mathematics dictates the inescapable conclusion

    that all betting progressions are doomed to abject failure. That is a tautology.

    It is NEVER worthy of discussion beyond that simple fact. No debates.

    Can always count on you Zen for the tough love. Thank you.

    I guess there are no new frontiers in advantage play beyond what's already known.

  11. #11
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    There are indeed new frontiers. But, progression systems are older than classic frontiers. They don't work.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    There are indeed new frontiers. But, progression systems are older than classic frontiers. They don't work.
    I'm sure you're right. Was just curious if counting and progressions could somehow be combined to produce positive results without the number of hands required to see the benefits of counting.

    I know it probably looks like I'm just looking for shortcuts.

    I reached my bankroll goals with counting and I think about playing again sometimes.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudstreets7087 View Post
    I'm sure you're right. Was just curious if counting and progressions could somehow be combined to produce positive results without the number of hands required to see the benefits of counting.

    I know it probably looks like I'm just looking for shortcuts.

    I reached my bankroll goals with counting and I think about playing again sometimes.
    There is a blog archive that talks about using "Martingale as Cover". In the article it talks about using Martingale at times when card counting. Like using Martingale when the count is positive and flat betting when the count is negative.

    https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/en...ngale-as-Cover

    So your idea of using a betting progression system with card counting is not new.

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