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Thread: Double down rescue rule versus basic strategy

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    Double down rescue rule versus basic strategy

    I’m playing an online BJ game with these rules: 8 decks, S17, D9-11, DAS, peek, late surrender (on any amount of cards even split aces) and double down rescue. Normally (4 decks or more), one would not double 11 vs A or 9 vs 2 in a S17 game, but since you can rescue your double, why wouldn’t you double down on these? Bottom line question: does the double down rescue rule alter basic strategy in any way?

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    Yes and you would want to double other hands as well. Probably ten vs ten and ace maybe even 9 vs ace, eight and nine.

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    Yes, the EV of doubling improves because you can rescue those doubled hands with an EV of less than -1. This could result in doubling becoming preferable to hitting in some cases. The surrender-at-any-time rule would also improve the EV of hitting, so I'm not sure what the overall effect would be. I can generate the basic strategy for these rules if you can't find it elsewhere.
    Last edited by Gronbog; 08-05-2015 at 02:17 PM.

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    Thanks biggg/Gronbog. Any idea where would I get all the correct plays on this one?

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    See my offer above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    See my offer above.
    I welcome your generous offer Gronbog! The results would be useful for many!

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    MGP Answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Picasso View Post
    I’m playing an online BJ game with these rules: 8 decks, S17, D9-11, DAS, peek, late surrender (on any amount of cards even split aces) and double down rescue. Normally (4 decks or more), one would not double 11 vs A or 9 vs 2 in a S17 game, but since you can rescue your double, why wouldn’t you double down on these? Bottom line question: does the double down rescue rule alter basic strategy in any way?
    Picasso,

    I ran your game through MGP's CA program and found an IBA of -0.26386...%: thus, the LSn and DDR rules are quite beneficial, but are not enough to make the game +EV off-the-top. By the way, I assumed that LSn and DDR are available even on split hands: if not, the IBA would suffer a bit.

    The B.S. for this game is shown below. The changes from 8D S17 DAS D9 LS are simple:

    1. DD on 10 or 11 vs. A.
    2. Use DDR vs. 8-A for any total of 16 or lower; never DDR vs. 2-7, and never DDR on a total of 17 or more.


    Your guess about 9 vs. 2 was close: EV-H is 0.076..., EV-DD is 0.068..., so H is still correct. You were correct on 11 vs. A, and notice that even 10 vs. A is now a DD.

    By the way, if you want a copy of the Excel output with all the EV's, send me an email or PM.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

    P.S. The BS table looks better in color
    Hard Totals 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1
    4 H H H H H H H H H H
    5 H H H H H H H H H H
    6 H H H H H H H H H H
    7 H H H H H H H H H H
    8 H H H H H H H H H H
    9 H D D D D H H H H H
    10 D D D D D D D D H D
    11 D D D D D D D D D D
    12 H H S S S H H H H H
    13 S S S S S H H H H H
    14 S S S S S H H H H H
    15 S S S S S H H H R H
    16 S S S S S H H R R R
    17 S S S S S S S S S S
    18 S S S S S S S S S S
    19 S S S S S S S S S S
    20 S S S S S S S S S S
    21 S S S S S S S S S S
    Soft Totals 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1
    12 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    13 H H H H H H H H H H
    14 H H H H H H H H H H
    15 H H H H H H H H H H
    16 H H H H H H H H H H
    17 H H H H H H H H H H
    18 S S S S S S S H H H
    19 S S S S S S S S S S
    20 S S S S S S S S S S
    21 S S S S S S S S S S
    Pairs 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1
    A, A P P P P P P P P P P
    2, 2 P P P P P P -- -- -- --
    3, 3 P P P P P P -- -- -- --
    4, 4 -- -- -- P P -- -- -- -- --
    5, 5 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    6, 6 P P P P P -- -- -- -- --
    7, 7 P P P P P P -- -- -- --
    8, 8 P P P P P P P P P P
    9, 9 P P P P P -- P P -- --
    10, 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    DD Rescue 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1
    11 X S S S S X X X X X
    12 S S S S S S R R X R
    13 S S S S S S R R R R
    14 S S S S S S R R R R
    15 S S S S S S R R R R
    16 S S S S S S R R R R
    17 S S S S S S S S S S
    18 S S S S S S S S S S
    19 S S S S S S S S S S
    20 S S S S S S S S S S
    21 S S S S S S S S S S
    Last edited by Dog Hand; 08-06-2015 at 07:37 AM. Reason: Changed "vs," to "vs."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picasso View Post
    I’m playing an online BJ game with these rules: 8 decks, S17, D9-11, DAS, peek, late surrender (on any amount of cards even split aces) and double down rescue. Normally (4 decks or more), one would not double 11 vs A or 9 vs 2 in a S17 game, but since you can rescue your double, why wouldn’t you double down on these? Bottom line question: does the double down rescue rule alter basic strategy in any way?


    You RESCUE when your double results in a stiff hand and the dealer shows an 8 or higher.

    Above you said: "late surrender (on any amount of cards even split aces)"

    You cannot split your pairs until AFTER you have been offered the opportunity to surrender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    You RESCUE when your double results in a stiff hand and the dealer shows an 8 or higher.

    Above you said: "late surrender (on any amount of cards even split aces)"

    You cannot split your pairs until AFTER you have been offered the opportunity to surrender.
    ZenMaster_Flash,

    So no splitting AT ALL vs. a dealer's Ace?

    That seems like a very odd rule, but if so, then remove the "P" for A-A vs. A and 8-8 vs. A from the strategy I gave above. Instead, "H" for A-A vs. A, and surrender "R" for 8-8 vs. A.

    Dog Hand

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    Dog Hand, incredible post AND VERY USEFUL. What is funny is that the online casino I’m playing (EspaceJeux Loto Québec, Canada, and only available to residents of Québec), has a BS chart for their game, but with this sim, it’s obvious their chart is inaccurate. They have DD rescue for 17 vs A and they do not double 10 or 11 vs A. Thank you very much…less money for the Casino!! I will print the results as soon as I get home (in Portugal right now).

    Zen, you can surrender your AA before splitting, or split, draw a card and thereafter surrender or stand: great rule!
    Last edited by Picasso; 08-06-2015 at 08:28 AM.

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    I have the same result for the strategy as Dog Hand in a colour html file if you want it (it's always nice to get independent results that are in agreement). I assumed no hitting or doubling after splitting aces, only surrendering, since that's all that you mentioned, but that only affects the house edge and not the strategy. Another feature of my html file is that you can hover your mouse over each cell in the table to see the simulated EVs of each action for comparison.

    I use use simulation to generate these kinds of results, as opposed to CA analysis, since I use the same algorithm to analyse tournament situations and indices where a complete CA analysis is not often practical (or even possible in the case of index generation). Dog Hand's spreadsheet of EVs will be exact where mine are estimates based on the simulation results, but still useful for practical purposes. A CA analyzer is on my list of things to do, but I have too many other projects on the go that are of greater interest/value to me at the moment.

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    Dog Hand,

    You said: "So no splitting AT ALL vs. a dealer's Ace?"

    I was trying to say that the O.P. erred in saying that there was no E.S. against "Split Aces"

    ES, ES10, or LS, the player is not offered that option to surrender AFTER splitting.

    EDITED:
    I missed the rule about surrendering one's split hands
    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 08-06-2015 at 08:50 AM.

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    Gronbog, I’m very interested by the results, but I can't PM you because I’m not a member. Can you PM me? If that proves impossible, I’m still very happy with your help and that of Dog Hand. I've always appreciated the help and advice received from most on this board. Thank you both!!

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