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Thread: Lucky Lucky, side counts

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    Lucky Lucky, side counts

    A few casinos where I play have Lucky Lucky (Note: This is not "Lucky Ladies." It's "Lucky Lucky.")

    It's another one of those side bets where your first two cards and the dealer's up-card make a hand. In this case, you get paid 1 to 1 if your cards and the dealer's up-card total 19. 2 to 1 for a 20. It then continues working up to higher pay for a 6, 7, 8 combo, suited and unsuited (suited pays more obviously), and trip 7s. The highest payout is trip suited 7s, which is 200 to 1, though unsuited 7s is a decent payout as well.

    I was thinking of side counting 7s and making a bet if there happen to be a butt-load of 7s left. I don't mind side counting at all. I've noticed that I am pretty good at it.

    So I was wondering, how many 7s would have to be left in the shoe (6D) to warrant a side bet? At one joint, they cut off only a deck. At another though, they cut off only half a deck. I wouldn't mess with it any place where they are dealing 4.5/6, but 5.5/6 may present an opportunity. I realize that I may have to count for months before I see a shoe heavy in 7s, but I don't mind.

    Is this worth pursuing? For a potential 200 to 1 payout, it is tempting to find out.

  2. #2


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    Waste of time using a 7's side count. There's a ton of info out there to beat this bet, but the balanced count is prob impossible to do simultaneously with a main count. Here are the tags for the count (-1, 1, 1, 0, 0, -1, -2, -2, 0, 1).. It earns $150/hr with those tags with max bet of 2x$50 and you bet it 28% of the time. You're prob better off just with the main game. Alternatively, the side bet you should be looking for is called super 7's which pays 5k for suited 7's on $1 bet. Lots of people claim to have a voodoo thing with lucky lucky correlating at extreme high or low counts but from what I've read it has to be like tc +/- 10 with Hilo.

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    When considering ANY unfamiliar Side Bet, your first stop is always WizardofOdds.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    When considering ANY unfamiliar Side Bet, your first stop is always WizardofOdds.com
    If no joy, then www.apheat.net.

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    My partner tracks and counts the LL sidebet. I believe he uses the omega 2-3 system? and we're quite profitable as a team with it. Quite common for us to max bet and to see 6-7-8 or 777 getting hit around us by the randoms who bet $1-5 for LLhowever we're doing it on a 87.5% pen 8 decker. If I recall what he said, its most useful and profitable (EV wise) on the double deck and he stated something like his hourly is cut by 30-40% on 6-8 deck shoes. But then he's winning the main game because hes sorta mimicking my ramp for the main.

    If you have the BR to sustain LL sidebet (2 x $50 as your bet); as MH stated, why not just beat the main game. However, if you have a $5 min double deck table with even moderate rules with the LL sidebet, that might become super profitable. Plus who ever expects an AP abusing that sidebet? I mean every1 bets it all the time, you'll be disguised a lot easier. If you flat bet $5-10 the whole way, disguised as reg who feeling lucky - until you start steam rolling in those $1250 bets.

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    7's count won't do it...

    Quote Originally Posted by counter19 View Post
    A few casinos where I play have Lucky Lucky (Note: This is not "Lucky Ladies." It's "Lucky Lucky.")

    It's another one of those side bets where your first two cards and the dealer's up-card make a hand. In this case, you get paid 1 to 1 if your cards and the dealer's up-card total 19. 2 to 1 for a 20. It then continues working up to higher pay for a 6, 7, 8 combo, suited and unsuited (suited pays more obviously), and trip 7s. The highest payout is trip suited 7s, which is 200 to 1, though unsuited 7s is a decent payout as well.

    I was thinking of side counting 7s and making a bet if there happen to be a butt-load of 7s left. I don't mind side counting at all. I've noticed that I am pretty good at it.

    So I was wondering, how many 7s would have to be left in the shoe (6D) to warrant a side bet? At one joint, they cut off only a deck. At another though, they cut off only half a deck. I wouldn't mess with it any place where they are dealing 4.5/6, but 5.5/6 may present an opportunity. I realize that I may have to count for months before I see a shoe heavy in 7s, but I don't mind.

    Is this worth pursuing? For a potential 200 to 1 payout, it is tempting to find out.
    counter19,

    First of all, the Lucky Lucky paytable that pays only 1:1 for a 19 is much harder to beat than the "normal" paytable. Here are the two paytables I used:

    Code:
    Hand Original 19 1:1
    Suited 777 200 200
    Suited 678 100 100
    Unsuited 777 50 50
    Unsuited 678 30 30
    Suited 21 15 15
    Unsuited 21 3 3
    Any 20 2 2
    Any 19 2 1
    Loser -1 -1
    For an 8D game, the Original has an IBA of -2.6238%, while the 19 1:1 has an IBA of -9.8833%: a much tougher nut to crack!

    I ran two billion-round CVData sims for the 19 1:1 paytable, using tags of -12 for 7's, and +1 for every other card. In each sim, the game was 8D with only 26 cards cut off, so a pen of 7.5/8. In the first sim, I found the SB became +EV at a TC of +30, so in the second sim the player played the SB (flat-betting $25) only at +30 & up. Here are the SB results:

    Code:
    Side Bet 1 Side Bet 1 Side Bet 1 Side Bet 1
    Units Bet # Won EV WR
    TOT 19,097,437 4,678,917 5.39% $2.57
    >39 8,706,236 2,146,265 10.13% $2.21
    39 747,873 182,803 4.06% $0.08
    38 978,186 239,280 2.02% $0.05
    37 471,328 115,377 4.09% $0.05
    36 1,006,684 245,907 1.94% $0.05
    35 1,040,023 254,308 1.50% $0.04
    34 1,178,664 287,241 1.68% $0.05
    33 753,728 183,834 2.58% $0.05
    32 1,758,950 428,518 0.08% $0.00
    31 1,125,213 273,290 0.56% $0.02
    30 1,330,552 322,094 -0.32% ($0.01)
    As you can see, in the 2nd sim the player was slightly "unlucky" at +30. Overall, using these tags, you'd play the SB on just over 1.9% of the rounds, with an average edge of +5.39%. While the edge is nice, the low play frequency makes this count ineffective for attacking this SB.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

  8. #8


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    Thanks Dog Hand! I figured it was a waste of time. I never had any intention of keeping two different balanced counts in order to play the game. I was aware of the counts available out there, but was never interested in them. I just thought that once in a blue moon there may be a great deal of 7s left to go for the big score. I never had any interest of beating the game with 19s, 20s, etc. I was just hoping for a well timed lottery ticket.
    Thanks again for going through that trouble!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by counter19 View Post
    I never had any intention of keeping two different balanced counts in order to play the game
    Agreed. I do keep 2 balanced counts and not many could do what I do without months of practice. I was looking at what was required to keep 2 balanced counts solo and I thought it was too hard for me to retrain to do. I am sure there are those gifted in these kinds of tasks that would find it easier to learn to do. I am not one of them. This would be a 2 player approach for almost anybody.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Hand View Post
    counter19,

    First of all, the Lucky Lucky paytable that pays only 1:1 for a 19 is much harder to beat than the "normal" paytable. Here are the two paytables I used:

    Code:
    Hand Original 19 1:1
    Suited 777 200 200
    Suited 678 100 100
    Unsuited 777 50 50
    Unsuited 678 30 30
    Suited 21 15 15
    Unsuited 21 3 3
    Any 20 2 2
    Any 19 2 1
    Loser -1 -1
    Dog Hand
    DH - Am I missing something or did you insert the same values for each paytable? If they are exact, then there would be no difference in IBA.

    EDIT - Never mind, I see that the Any 19 has 2 separate values. Sorry.

  11. #11


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    Clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by counter19 View Post
    Thanks Dog Hand! I figured it was a waste of time. I never had any intention of keeping two different balanced counts in order to play the game. I was aware of the counts available out there, but was never interested in them. I just thought that once in a blue moon there may be a great deal of 7s left to go for the big score. I never had any interest of beating the game with 19s, 20s, etc. I was just hoping for a well timed lottery ticket.
    Thanks again for going through that trouble!
    counter19,

    I failed to explain the "7's Count" very well.

    When you use the indicated tags (-12 for 7; +1 for everything else), the TC divided by 13 is equal to the number of excess 7's per deck.

    For example, if you have two decks with a total of 10 7's and 94 non-7's, the RC will be 10*12 - 94 = +26, so the TC will be +26/2 = +13, which equates to 1 excess 7 per deck.

    Conversely, if you have 3 excess 7's per deck, the TC is +39.

    So, since you need a TC of at least +30 to have an edge, you can instead think of that as meaning you need about 2.5 excess 7's per deck (actually, just under two and a third) to have +EV on the L2 sidebet.

    By the way, I propose the abbreviation "L2" for Lucky Lucky, so as to differentiate it from LL = Lucky Ladies.

    I hope this clarifies my earlier post.

    Dog Hand

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