When the dealer knows

[Freightman]

Forgetting about your local markets, where likely everyone knows you're counting anyways....

I'm in a different city right now

Dealer 1 comments - lots of small cards - now - raises his bets etc etc. you should really increase your spread - management is clueless here. Thanks for the advice (by the way - they're only semi clueless)

Dealer 2 comments - - giving me the best cut in this joint - notwithstanding other comments - do you know ES 10 surrender indexes (comment darned near floored me) - surrender 14, 15, 16. (I have ES10). I reply, Right or wrong, that's off the top - conditions change. I prefer to make the low cost error of hitting 14 with 1 unit at neutral counts. I noticed he says - you'll surrender 14, but hit 16 depending on how heavy the deck is. He commented when his replacement came that it was a pleasure dealing to a skillful player.

Normally, I would not say anything, but I wasn't fooling either of these guys, and saw no need to insult their intelligence. How do you guys normally deal with these comments.

[NotEnoughHeat]

I haven't had much (read: any at all) experience with dealers who actually know their stuff, but a few do know enough (not close to enough to count themselves) to know what I'm up to. Sometimes I'm met with reverence, sometimes indifference and occasional condescension (counting is just another 'system', ya, go try and win buddy).

If you aren't fooling them, I personally would acknowledge their comments while neither confirming nor denying the allegations . You need some plausible deniability, since you can't have the pit boss hear you from ten feet away that "OH COOL! YOU KNOW I COUNT".

[ZeeBabar]

Being old, I usually indicate I am too old to learn to count or remember it for long, that I just go with what happened in the last round, like if I don't see any aces or the ratio of small cards to face cards and make all decisions. Once a dealer told me, with the pit standing next to him, that I should have a consistent decision, that I should either hit 12's or stand every time, same with 10,6 against a 10. I was sitting at 3rd base, said I decide after I see the cards that came before my turn and there is no fun in gambling if I always make the same decision, that the fun comes from guessing what your gut tells you to do.

[Jabberwocky]

Being old, I usually indicate I am too old to learn to count or remember it for long, that I just go with what happened in the last round, like if I don't see any aces or the ratio of small cards to face cards and make all decisions. Once a dealer told me, with the pit standing next to him, that I should have a consistent decision, that I should either hit 12's or stand every time, same with 10,6 against a 10. I was sitting at 3rd base, said I decide after I see the cards that came before my turn and there is no fun in gambling if I always make the same decision, that the fun comes from guessing what your gut tells you to do.

What I intend to do always depends on the size of the gas ball in my gut that is threatening to escape at any moment.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Counters are easily picked off by ANY observer who knows that only Card Counters will

be INCONSISTENT on 16 vs 10, 9 vs 2, 11 vs. Ace, some soft doubles, etc.

This is especially true with 16 vs. 10. A hand I am unlikely to hit, for obvious reasons.

Basic Strategists, common hunch players, progression bettors, tourists, degenerates

all are almost perfectly consistent with their plays. Do you want to stand out ?

OF COURSE, the primary way that a Card Counter "outs" himself is by changing the

size of their bets far too often. Attempting to move from 1 hand to 2 and vice versa

is the quickest route to being 86'd. All the EYE need note is how the count has moved

in the two rounds prior to your move between 1 and 2 or 2 and 1 betting spots. Ever

since (around) 1999 it seems that most pit critters are on the alert for these moves.

[Orangechip2]

Freight,

I have had similar run-ins on multiple occasions. One very recently while playing in what some here refer to as a ‘smart region’. I feel as if I was identified as either “Unidentified Male 874189” (my photo in the book) or the dealer was just on to me as I play with little to no cover/camo while on the road to make up for the $ I miss out on by not playing rated .

Here’s the scoop: Playing as a refusal and I sit down at a pitch game with aspirations of playing until I got a nice cycle of max bets out – I typically don’t run after exposing a cycle of max bets unless it is Day 1, by day 3-4 I don’t mind camping considering the time lost by traveling from store to store – at home it’s a little different for obvious reasons. Anyways, 3-4 shuffles into playing with this dealer the advantageous situation finally presented itself and there was not a suit in site. I lost my original buy-in and instantly bought in for 2 max bets & slap them out being this was the last round. First hand I get 10,9 – second hand I had 8,8 – dealers showing a7. I wave the first one and split my 8’s to get another 8, split again. Get a 3, I double and get a face. Next hand I get a 4, hit again for a 4 – I wave dealer points at the 16, I again wave – at this point the TC is > +8 – hegoes “you are making this obvious” I said nothing and instead I gave him the “damn your broke look” and again waved my hand to stay. Next hand I get a 7 dealt to me for 15 –I stay . The Dealer legitimately laughed out loud. He then turns over 7,7 andlooks up at me – I pulled the most devilish smile out and said “bye bye” he busted with an 8 and then made the comment “I’m sure you’d love another round”.I waited until he paid me out my 4 max bets and said “You are correct, I would loveeee anotherround. Elsewhere.” Grabbed my pile of black and greens while he was offering to color me up and left before a suit resurfaced and without entertaining his BS! The great thing about this whole situation was I left his chip tray with less than$1,000 in black chips and I also left him to answer to the suit as to what the hell happened to all the black chips! I hit the door no tip – no nothing – guess that will teach him that trying to be aw ise guy doesn’t even get you a single red chip even after . Aghh oh well, hisloss J


Here is a good thread on a similar subject:
https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?16923-When-the-dealer-knows

[Timbertom]

It is a difficult situation. Normally I never admit to anyone in a casino that I count card Sometimes I have been in your situation and if I know they aren't tip hustling or will tell the pit that I am counting I will give them a neutral answer that neither deny or admit I am counting. On the odd occasion I have received good information from a dealer.
I agree that nothing is gained by insulting their intelligence.

[Three]

Freight,

I have had similar run-ins on multiple occasions. One very recently while playing in what some here refer to as a ‘smart region’. I feel as if I was identified as either “Unidentified Male 874189” (my photo in the book) or the dealer was just on to me as I play with little to no cover/camo while on the road to make up for the $ I miss out on by not playing rated .

Here’s the scoop: Playing as a refusal and I sit down at a pitch game with aspirations of playing until I got a nice cycle of max bets out – I typically don’t run after exposing a cycle of max bets unless it is Day 1, by day 3-4 I don’t mind camping considering the time lost by traveling from store to store – at home it’s a little different for obvious reasons. Anyways, 3-4 shuffles into playing with this dealer the advantageous situation finally presented itself and there was not a suit in site. I lost my original buy-in and instantly bought in for 2 max bets & slap them out being this was the last round. First hand I get 10,9 – second hand I had 8,8 – dealers showing a7. I wave the first one and split my 8’s to get another 8, split again. Get a 3, I double and get a face. Next hand I get a 4, hit again for a 4 – I wave dealer points at the 16, I again wave – at this point the TC is > +8 – hegoes “you are making this obvious” I said nothing and instead I gave him the “damn your broke look” and again waved my hand to stay. Next hand I get a 7 dealt to me for 15 –I stay . The Dealer legitimately laughed out loud. He then turns over 7,7 andlooks up at me – I pulled the most devilish smile out and said “bye bye” he busted with an 8 and then made the comment “I’m sure you’d love another round”.I waited until he paid me out my 4 max bets and said “You are correct, I would loveeee anotherround. Elsewhere.” Grabbed my pile of black and greens while he was offering to color me up and left before a suit resurfaced and without entertaining his BS! The great thing about this whole situation was I left his chip tray with less than$1,000 in black chips and I also left him to answer to the suit as to what the hell happened to all the black chips! I hit the door no tip – no nothing – guess that will teach him that trying to be aw ise guy doesn’t even get you a single red chip even after . Aghh oh well, hisloss J

This is a great and illustrative post. I am not sure I would have done it the same but there is no right way and if you didn't take a hit to longevity anywhere it was certainly not the wrong move for that situation. Each situation is different so being able to judge what is right requires actually being there. Thanks for sharing. I am sure some that haven't been in these situations much got a lot from it.

[ZeeBabar]

Counters are easily picked off by ANY observer who knows that only Card Counters will

be INCONSISTENT on 16 vs 10, 9 vs 2, 11 vs. Ace, some soft doubles, etc.

This is especially true with 16 vs. 10. A hand I am unlikely to hit, for obvious reasons.

Basic Strategists, common hunch players, progression bettors, tourists, degenerates

all are almost perfectly consistent with their plays. Do you want to stand out ?

OF COURSE, the primary way that a Card Counter "outs" himself is by changing the

size of their bets far too often. Attempting to move from 1 hand to 2 and vice versa

is the quickest route to being 86'd. All the EYE need note is how the count has moved

in the two rounds prior to your move between 1 and 2 or 2 and 1 betting spots. Ever

since (around) 1999 it seems that most pit critters are on the alert for these moves.

is there some study somewhere about how ploppies bet and that they are very consistent? I do believe how much heat you get depends upon the casino, your own appearance, and act and more. In many smaller casinos, they have opted to make rules tough and lower penetration rather than pay staff to monitor players from the EYE. In Missouri, you don't get backed off. I never come close to the table Max.

Today, when I walked in to play my regular DD game (double 9-11, no re splitting or Surrender, pen of 75%), the sole $25 min. Table had 3 folks at it with one guy playing 2 hands. I sat down at a 6 deck, $5 min table, called the pit guy over and told him that if the number of players at get DD game reduces, save me a spot and then played 2 spots at $5 each. On minus counts, I played just one hand, neutral count 2x $5, TC +1 2x $25, with max of 2x$75 at any positive count over TC +2 and played strictly to count, left table an hour later with $550.

Now, I don't know if a white guy in his 20's with baseball cap could get away but I have been playing there for 2+ years, up about $12k at that casino and have never had any problems. The pit guys know me as a local businessman and stopped looking at my play a long time ago. I just think the picture is different at local casinos with known local folks as long as your spread is not outrageous, you don't come close to the posted max, keep you per session winnings to around $500, and do all the tricks from ratholing to ensuring they note down every time you lose.

[Three]

I have been playing there for 2+ years, up about $12k at that casino and have never had any problems.

Try winning $12K in a weekend and then get back to me.

[Masterhoudini]

Try winning $12K in a weekend and then get back to me.

LOL depends on tolerance level of the joint. I've won 12k in half an hour, even 50k in one weekend at some joints and they didn't bat an eye.

[Three]

LOL depends on tolerance level of the joint. I've won 12k in half an hour, even 50k in one weekend at some joints and they didn't bat an eye.

I know. That wasn't my point. I think you got my point. LOL

[Goatlife]

Try winning $12K in a weekend and then get back to me.

or hand, lol.. with doubles and splits all over the place