Recent events

[KJ]

It's easy to see things have gotten out of hand in recent days. I truly believe that is because we are all passionate about this site, Norm's site, but we all think of it as a little bit of our own. I know I do.

Some of the professional players are willing to participate and share experiences at a level that doesn't happen on other sites. We often compare to BJ21, but those of you that participate there know the professional players share very little. If they do, it is something that happened 15 years prior.

I am willing to share many of my own experiences in an effort to help others. In my own case, probably too much, as I often get a warning message from my buddy 21forme, to be careful that I am sharing too much or sharing something too soon to actual occurance.

I know it appears to Norman and some others that a group of us have ganged up on T3. Let me be clear once again of my concern. All these different count 'debates' and discussions occur when some newer player posts asking “what is the best count” or “what count should I use or learn”. The second a question like that is asked, it just proves the person is no more ready to consider anything other than hi-lo or equivelent. When you are ready to consider a different count or approach, you won't be asking a question like that.

So, the way it works, is the newer members asks one of these “which count variations”, the count doesn't matter/simple approach guys (like myself) and the level 2/3 guys like Flash go back and forth a little and then T3 post a long, college term paper on the merits of his system, complete with numbers and formulas and all. It isn't even about whether he has found the 'Holy grail' or not...maybe he has. It is about this being the wrong platform and influencing those least ready to even hear such a discusion.

I have said before the proper venue for T3's long posts and even Tarzan's posts of his count is the advanced section. I mean come on that goes without saying....read the name....advanced section. The argument as to why it won't be discussed there is because of limited traffic in the subscription area. But really that is the very reason that is where it belongs. Anyone not willing to pay $3 a month subscription, probably isn't serious enough about their game to be considering T3 or tarzan's approach.

Finally, I want to say, a good part of the reason T3 rubs us all the wrong way is because he talks down to us. He talks with this air of superiority. I mean he talks as if he is a veteran professional player of 20 years who has made 7 or 8 figures with his proven, tried and tested approach, when none of that is close to the truth, amounts, nor tried and tested.

So T3, again, I ask, please tone it down. Keep your discussion away from the noobs who will be harmed if they follow you and your claims, and in the proper venue. And in return, I will try harder to ignore you.

Norm, I ask that we all call a truce. Let's try to get Bjarg and 21forme back participating so we all can benefit from each other and help keep this site something special and worthwhile.

[Three]

I agree to all that. I have been thinking the exact same thing. I risked a lot sharing things that are nontraditional and nothing good came of it that is obvious. If someone asks a question about this I will answer in a PM or keep it brief. If they require more on the public board I will demand a private discussion. And I will stop the jokes about Hilo. I don't think anyone gets that it is a joke judging by reactions.

[moses]

KJ; T3s posts are lengthy and easy to determine, just by reading, an approach that's way over the average players heads. But what you're doing isn't that much better. You speak of HiLo as though it's this 'Holy Grail' as well. Endure the manure and you will survive - the more you can take the more you will thrive; seems to be your mantra. Yes, you're very open to share with others the volatility and end result of overcoming same. The difference is one can only "read" what you say and not "feel" what go through to achieve success. Savvy and valor is difficult to put into words but I'd bet that's what sets you and BJarg apart from the rest of the field. I'm not talkin the seasoned pros but the lesser skilled or noobies. Quite frankly, that irks me that you play down your valor as an excuse to argue against improvement. I agree, few can be Tarzan or Flash. But there are 28 other methods most of which have a higher BC, PC, and IC rating than HiLo.

I lost $20K in one day only once in my lifetime on black Monday October 19, 1987. You were probably in grade school. The hell of it was I'd stopped at a pay phone to sell at 12.50pm PST on Friday to sell and couldn't get through on the busy phone lines at Fidelity. If I remember correctly, that Friday before was the first day the Dow had ever dropped 100 points. The weekend was the longest of my life listening to news reports of the disaster expected to arrive on Monday. I'd managed to save $100K working a day job and ballgames at night for the 7 years prior. I realize you're not familar with officiating. Let's me say I'd been spit at, swung at, shouted at, and stabbed. Literally had to fight my way out of a parking lot while saving a fellow ref from really getting hurt. Plus you ran your ass off every single minute. There was a stretch of no days and only 5 nights off in a 5 year period...and that was due to heavy snow. Point is, that $100K was pretty damn important to me at the time and losing $20K with my first daughter just being born was not easy to take. I held on until Thursday before cashing out and vowing to replace the lost funds as quickly as possible. This determination eventually launched me to the college level in officiating and I studied the stock market to the point I wrote a financial newsletter years later and made quite a large sum of money by watching the numbers and not listening to the noise.

There is a lot a "noise" on this forum and you seem to be the one making it. One minute you are exiting the worst forum on earth -the next you are returning to the best. How does such an emotional wreck even sit down to play the volatile game of blackjack? It's your valor...you've been knocked down so many times and gotten back up that now you do it without even thinking about it. That sir, is unique and rare. So please not only allow, but insist others less skilled and with far less valor find simplistic ways to improve their game and skills.

[Bodarc]

Norm, I ask that we all call a truce. Let's try to get Bjarg and 21forme back participating so we all can benefit from each other and help keep this site something special and worthwhile.

I agree to all that. I have been thinking the exact same thing.

AMEN Brothers!!!!

[Norm]

I'm just trying to stop the incivility. No one has been banned. Everyone has been able to have their say. I finally suspended one member for one week as his posts were becoming more and more belligerent. But, he is not prevented from returning. And, the suspension can be lifted if he says he'll play nice and promise not to deport me to my home planet.

EDIT: On discussions about advanced strategies taking place in the Advanced Strategies forum, I certainly think this is a good suggestion in general. But, I don't want to make a hard and fast rule, and we rarely move threads.

[ZeeBabar]

I am so glad KJ is back.

[RS]

Glad to see you're back, KJ (wait, you're back, right).


IMO, when responding to such threads, Tthree shouldn't be talking only about how good those high-level counts are, but should also talk about the negatives to the high level counts (accuracy, practice, inability to do "advanced counting strategies" like ST or counting multi tables). Even if it can be performed well and easily by T3, that doesn't mean many others can. Granted, the information is (or can be) good about high level counts, that Tthree gives. At the same time, KJ shouldn't only be talking about how good HiLo is, but should also express the negatives to HiLo as well as the positives. And of course, we should all encourage the person who's trying to decide on whether they want to learn a more difficult system or learn/keep a simpler system the most important thing --- it depends on your circumstances. The games you play, your playing style, the opportunities available to you, your ability/skill and work ethic, and whatever else factors into it. For example, it'd be silly to tell someone that HiLo is better than HiOpt II because you can count multiple tables with HiLo....but the person plays primarily pitch games. Or telling someone HiOpt II is better than HiLo because of the increased accuracy and EV, when they mostly back-count and wong shoes. Or telling someone they should use HiLo because it's easier to ST....even though they don't have any ST opportunities around them [and/or aren't interested in ST].


I don't think one approach is necessarily better than the other, in general. But some approaches are definitely better than others given a player's specific circumstances.

[Three]

I agree with you RS. I have tried to do that or say those are valid points when others say them. I just don't add that to every post. People have lampooned my post length and I have been trying to make them shorter for a while now.

[Bodarc]

I have been trying to make them shorter for a while now.

You've been doing a good job Three, you're down from 4 pages to 3!

Hahaha I am just picking at you!

[Three]

You've been doing a good job Three, you're down from 4 pages to 3!

Hahaha I am just picking at you!

Good one. I have cut most back but some just need to be more wordy. That can be hard to avoid.

[Norm]

Good one. I have cut most back but some just need to be more wordy. That can be hard to avoid.

I find arthritis is a good cure for wordiness.

[moses]

Glad to see you're back, KJ (wait, you're back, right).

I don't think one approach is necessarily better than the other, in general. But some approaches are definitely better than others given a player's specific circumstances.

Morning line is even money.

My favorite qoute in Griffens books is "good engineers have the ability to understand complex equations - but the great ones have the ability to make complex simple again."

The only issue I've ever read about Wong Halves is that it's doggone difficult...and it is. I know personally of those with less than 2 years experience that have doubled Wong Halves and is doing quite well. But this particular individual has an unquenchable thirst to learn and desire to win. Those just simply wanting the answers to the test questions are never going to be good students or blackjack players.

Improving to make money with less stress should take priority over perfection or persistance with a lesser count. Side counts will put so many numbers in the average players heads they will not be able to effectively play the game. There is a simpler way for those not able to make this initial leap from Hi Lo to Wong Halves. Move the 1/2 on the 5 to the 7 for pitch games and to the 2 for shoe games. Double it for shoe games. While perfection is not achieved, a sound game plan certainly is now in place with substantial improvement in all 3 categories. The next step then is Wong Halves which get close enough to perfection.

Only those with that unquenchable thirst need to extend to the lunar planets of perfection. If not, on negative decks, like the 1966 Hit by The Left Banke - Just Walk Away Renee.

[KJ]

KJ; T3s posts are lengthy and easy to determine, just by reading, an approach that's way over the average players heads. But what you're doing isn't that much better. You speak of HiLo as though it's this 'Holy Grail' as well. Endure the manure and you will survive - the more you can take the more you will thrive; seems to be your mantra. Yes, you're very open to share with others the volatility and end result of overcoming same. The difference is one can only "read" what you say and not "feel" what go through to achieve success. Savvy and valor is difficult to put into words but I'd bet that's what sets you and BJarg apart from the rest of the field. I'm not talkin the seasoned pros but the lesser skilled or noobies. Quite frankly, that irks me that you play down your valor as an excuse to argue against improvement. I agree, few can be Tarzan or Flash. But there are 28 other methods most of which have a higher BC, PC, and IC rating than HiLo.

I lost $20K in one day only once in my lifetime on black Monday October 19, 1987. You were probably in grade school.

There is a lot a "noise" on this forum and you seem to be the one making it. One minute you are exiting the worst forum on earth -the next you are returning to the best. How does such an emotional wreck even sit down to play the volatile game of blackjack? It's your valor...you've been knocked down so many times and gotten back up that now you do it without even thinking about it. That sir, is unique and rare. So please not only allow, but insist others less skilled and with far less valor find simplistic ways to improve their game and skills.

I was not in grade school in 1987, I was in a playpen.

I don't really understand your post. Seems like you want to jump right back into a feud. Yes, I do speak highly of hi-lo, because it works. I am not saying other counts don't work, I am just saying hi-lo does. There is a track record. I have a track record of success with it as well as many other players over many years. We are not still piecing info together or gathering data concerning whether it works. It is widely believed to be used by more professional players than any other count. With many professional players sharing the sentiment stated by bigplayer and RWM that what count you play, just isn't that important, Hi-lo seems like pretty good place for one to start. And that's what we are talking about here, players starting out.

Anyone who uses the words "pay" and "phone" in the same breath, has been around a while and likely been playing a while. Moses, you run sims regularly and understand the game. If someone like yourself, thinks a different count and approach is right for them, power to you. In your unique case of playing mostly single deck, it very well may be. If someone like T3, Flash, or Tarzan, thinks a different count or approach is right for them, power to them.

I just have a real problem with newer players with a 'join date' days or weeks old, being fed misleading expectations, like that you can win 40k over 3 weekends playing a top wager of $100 or two, because of an advanced count or approach. There is enough unrealistic expectations from movies like '21' and 'the hangover' that show winning 80 grand in one short session. Let's keep expectation real. Card counting, blackjack is a grind, no matter how you play. At best you can turn a house edge into a razor thin player edge, which yes, does mean there will be ugly swings and variance. That is card counting.

I really don't understand the "manure" comment or what you are even driving at in the final paragraph, so I'll just let that go.