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Thread: Wonging situation- playing behind or opening new square?

  1. #1


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    Wonging situation- playing behind or opening new square?

    I have recently come across a game which allows mid shoe entry and partner betting at a high limit table.

    I have traditionally only played in play-all situations before and have rarely seen HL tables where this is allowed so this concept is new to me.

    My question is, is it better to wong in aggressively opening 2 new squares (but eating cards), or is it better to partner bet behind another player but risk that he/she is obviously not playing using the right indexes or even basic strategy for the most part. Let's assume they control the square and do not ask for your opinion to play the hand.

    Which strategy is better?

  2. #2


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    Txt
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterhoudini View Post
    I have recently come across a game which allows mid shoe entry and partner betting at a high limit table.

    I have traditionally only played in play-all situations before and have rarely seen HL tables where this is allowed so this concept is new to me.

    My question is, is it better to wong in aggressively opening 2 new squares (but eating cards), or is it better to partner bet behind another player but risk that he/she is obviously not playing using the right indexes or even basic strategy for the most part. Let's assume they control the square and do not ask for your opinion to play the hand.

    Which strategy is better?
    It's TC +6, you put 2k behind the fellows $50 bet, and he wants to double 12v5 or 6.

    Methinks you would rather be the master of your own destiny.

  3. #3


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    I would never bet behind an unknown player. Besides not making the correct play, you could be subject to "back betting extortion."
    I saw this at FW once - player had a green chip up. Asian woman bets a purple behind him. He gets a BJ, then turns around to her and says, "I'm going to hit my BJ unless you give me $100." I believe this is one of the reasons they did away with back betting at FW.

  4. #4


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    I did consider the aspect of extortion. I guess I was more curious in terms of numbers comparing the added value of extra rounds but the person maybe not doing proper index play vs. fewer rounds with me playing those squares perfectly. Obviously most ploppies know not to hit a stiff vs. 5,6 etc. it's probably only stuff like 15,16, soft 18 arguments could arise.

    Is is my line of thinking making sense kind of?

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterhoudini View Post
    I did consider the aspect of extortion. I guess I was more curious in terms of numbers comparing the added value of extra rounds but the person maybe not doing proper index play vs. fewer rounds with me playing those squares perfectly. Obviously most ploppies know not to hit a stiff vs. 5,6 etc. it's probably only stuff like 15,16, soft 18 arguments could arise.

    Is is my line of thinking making sense kind of?
    Understand what your thinking - forget about it. Your going to come in heavy. Take your (hopefully) profitable situation and take your win. And who knows, maybe you'll get that multi split with doubles where your new found buddy would have passed in the first place. As for the logic of ploppies, your new buddy just described just might make similar idiotic, stupid, outrageous plays that I saw some Bonzo make yesterday. He was truly the author of his own misfortune. You definitely want the upper hand in controlling your own destiny.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterhoudini View Post
    I have recently come across a game which allows mid shoe entry and partner betting at a high limit table.

    I have traditionally only played in play-all situations before and have rarely seen HL tables where this is allowed so this concept is new to me.
    The term is called back lining with the seated person referred to as the caller who has the front line bet and is the decision maker on how to play the hand. The player who makes a back line bet behind the caller is called the rider who can take insurance their choice and surrender if it is available (although you better be real quick before the caller plays the hand out) even if the caller does not want to. This often causes the problems between strangers not real partners involved in the same hand. I believe if the caller wants to surrender pending on the house rules the back bet can now play the hand which changes the flow and the ploppies go bullshit and the caller not only getting angry but refusing to allow the player any future back bets.I am not positive on this last part as it has been three years since I have done this.Otherwise standing, hitting, doubling and original splitting decisions are all on the caller. When Two players are actual teammates working together the caller will be making small front line bets and will be splitting overly aggressive or sacrificing almost 0.2 % for the purpose of improving his partners starting position who is also making bets that are much higher than his partner preferably 7 times as high to assure the gain is greater than the loss to the caller. When the caller makes these aggressive splits his partner decides whether to go along and split or not. If he does not also split his position has improved dramatically without having too put up a dime. Example splits that cost the caller very little and benefit the rider very much are 2-2, 3-3,7-7 against a 8 up. This info is from the book Basic Blackjack by Stanford Wong which also has complete charts on the topic.

    BoSox

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    When Two players are actual teammates working together
    This is a team dream structure. I sit a qualified spotter to play at table minimum and then I bet with them when dictated by TC. By qualified, I mean is playing perfectly including indexes. I might bet with them at table minimum and use my bet position to ramp when appropriate.

    If it can be done without exposing the team relationship, I believe it would be effective. Have not done this, so do not have feel for heat on this type of table. Interested to hear from experienced players.

    Would like feedback from anyone that has tried this, or something similar.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  8. #8


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    Do you have a rider strategy chart M?
    You can gain a 0.2% advantage playing a backline perfect strategy (on the rider bets of course).

  9. #9
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    bjarg, i send for you split strategy. See you mail.

  10. #10


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    Thanks for your replies everyone. I will look into the proper rider strategy chart.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramazeka View Post
    bjarg, i send for you split strategy. See you mail.
    Thanks man.
    I have it already.
    Last year we used it to attack a CSM game that had a very little off the top advantage.
    We did ok but eventually stopped.
    The EV compared to our regular play was just not worth the time.

  12. #12


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    For those with Green Chip access over at bj21.com, the proper back-betting team strategies (based on house rules and the ratio of (back bet)/(front bet)) along with details of the potential gains available can be found at this URL:

    http://www.bj21.com/greenchip/archiv...cgi?read=21303

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

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